Anyone made a DIY kino like this? at DVinfo.net

David Delaney · December 31st, 2006, 01:03 PM

Has anyone tried to make one of these?

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=80601

I like the idea and it seems simple, but unsure where to get the parts - ie; the screen that looks like a grid that goes in front.

Brian Luce · December 31st, 2006, 01:32 PM

Yes I made two. Mine has 9 lights and two switches to control it. I made it from a aluminum tubing riveted together. pretty solid. The first one had barn doors, what a pain in the ass trying to make barn doors. Don't ask why I thought barn doors would be a good idea.

Here's some shots--I like the results alot.

Brian Luce · December 31st, 2006, 01:37 PM

and here's a good link:

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=82380

David Delaney · December 31st, 2006, 02:05 PM

Do you have shots of the unit? When I go to the thread you stated, it won't let me see the jpgs.
Also is there a parts list with locations to purchase? I am especially interested in the grid sheet that goes on the front.

Brian Luce · December 31st, 2006, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Delaney

Do you have shots of the unit? When I go to the thread you stated, it won't let me see the jpgs.
Also is there a parts list with locations to purchase? I am especially interested in the grid sheet that goes on the front.

The problem is I live in the philippines. So it wouldn't help you if I told you. basically i have machine shop fabricate them. labor and materials were around $40 (US).
I'll look for some pics...

Jay Dee · January 3rd, 2007, 03:46 PM

I've been thinking about building those lights but I can't seem to find those spiral lamps with a decent CRI in 220v. I don't even know if they exist...

JD

David Delaney · January 3rd, 2007, 04:48 PM

I've seen the spiral lights at the dollar store...

Dan Brockett · January 3rd, 2007, 06:58 PM

Hi David:

Those CFLs at the dollar store are going to have a very low CRI. The high quality CFLs with a high CRI cost over $20.00 ea.

Best,

Dan

Brian Luce · January 3rd, 2007, 10:34 PM

The still off this link were shot with home depot spirals. They look good to me but I don't have DP eyes.

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=82380

Brian

Jaron Berman · January 3rd, 2007, 11:15 PM

Ok, so not to be the stick in the mud.... but why go to all this trouble?

When people compare output and wattage between Kino's and Tungsten, they're comparing soflights of the same shape and general softness to one another. There's a vast difference in output between a series of tubes (long) stacked in front of reflectors, and a grid of spiral flo's behind diffusion. Yes, flo's are more efficient than tungsten lamps, but if you have to diffuse them again to achieve the same effect (a large, even light source) as a stack of 4 tubes... well you're working against yourself. Fluorescent tubes are advantageous because of their shape and efficiency. They are naturally diffuse sources - light is emitted along the entire length of the tube in all directions at roughly equal brightness. Sprial flo's were intended for use in conventional lampshades to fill the place of frosted bulbs. Using a grid of spiral flos is like taking your perfectly shaped tube, coiling it up (so it restrikes itself), and then trying to use it like a standard tungsten bulb, and then using bounce and diffusion to force the light back into the shape it's naturally in (with a straight tube)! Plus, with all the support, frame, extra diffusion, etc... you're kinda negating any of the advantages of the flo source to begin with.

The design in question is like a "chicken coup," the difference being that chicken coups are generally constructed to use very hard, very bright tungsten sources in a way which makes them soft and even.

So here's a suggestion - go to the depot, and buy a 4 tube fixture. Whether its 4' long or 2' long is up to you. Either way, all the work will basically be done for you. To mount to a stand, open it up and drill a 5/8" hole in it. Use fender washers on both sides and a full-thread bolt. Leave about 4" of bolt sticking out the back. Clamp that in a grip head and you'll have a flexible, cheap and very soft light.... which should be about twice as bright as the design suggested here. Oh, and the advantage is you can buy nice osram tubes in any flavor of color temp... or just get cheap tubes and white balance away. I'd shy away from Kino tubes - Kino ballasts overdrive their tubes, meaning that in a standard ballast they'll appear slightly magenta.

Work smarter, not harder.

Brian Luce · January 4th, 2007, 02:41 AM

good points Jaron but one advantage of the spiral system is it packs into a tight, highly portable kit. Your solution would be bulkier and more prone to damage for a location shoot.
However, it IS time consuming to screw in the spirals and unscrew them for a shoot. In my case it's 22 bulbs so that 44 screws. And in this case, lots of screwing is not a good thing...

Jaron Berman · January 4th, 2007, 11:23 AM

True, not very portable. But I'm not clear how a commercially-made steel enclosure (with lamps securely mounted inside) could be any more prone to damage than a homemade enclosure and cardboard boxes full of CFL lamps?

For the non- DIY route, you may consider a Lowel Tota and a softbox. Takes about 2 min to setup and is perfectly soft, and extremely bright. Plus there are a lot of accessories on the market for that particular rig (like egg-crates off many different angles). In the end, it's probably cheaper to just buy something read-made like that, if you consider your the time you spend on-set trying to assemble your diy light. Probably a lot brighter (I would guess a single tota is about 3 times brighter than your 22 lamps), more compact, and easier to set up. Or for a bit more cash, a Rifalite.

I've always been one to try and build before I buy. But something I've learned over the years is that there is often a reason why the vast majority of people don't build their own lighting gear. And while I'd like to think that most people don't because they aren't able, that's only part of it. Trying to design and build a system from scratch menas that to achieve anywhere near the success of a commercial system, you'll have to test and fail a lot of experiments... meaning that if you're trying to achieve a solution to an application which already exists, you're more than likely going to spend more money and time than if you were to just buy it in the first place. I agree that Kino Flo's are overpriced. However, we no longer are stuck with Kino as the only Flo manufacturer on the market. Having built a number of fluorescent lights, I can attest that there is a lot of engineering that goes into making something that is truly ready for day-in day-out field use. But if the goal is simply a soft-light bank which is portable and inexpensive - well there are literally hundreds of solutions on the market already.

When you factor your time building this thing, as well as the time you spend on set screwing lamps, and balancing out the giant green spike, and the lack of color rendition that cfl's can provide, and the cost of higher CRI lamps.... well this isn't a cheap project at all anymore. If people here have already done it; congrats! If not, I would suggest sitting down to answer a few questions of one's self:

1- why do I want this light
2- what can it do that other lights cannot
3- how long does it take to set up?
4- what is the actual output compared to similar lights?***
5- what accessories can be found or made for it?
6- when it breaks in the field, how can I improvise? Where can I find spare parts?
7- how long will it take to build, (3 x how long you think)?
8- how much will it cost to build (2 x what's budgeted)?
9- would production rent it when its completed??????

You may find that production is wary to allow home-built lighting on set, not only because of the image it creates, but because of safety concerns. Are you willing to take the responsibility that comes with your equipment starting a fire due to a wiring "whoops?"

***When discussing ACTUAL output, remember that besides Kino or Osram TV/Film specific lamps, all fluorescents have HUGE green spikes. Green is typically 4-6 times brighter than the rest of the spectrum, so when measuring brightness, they are taking a reading off the brightest part of the spectrum. When you white balance, or filter out that spike, you're left with a smooth-ish spectrum that's about 5 times less bright than "rated." So a 13w CFL bulb which claims to be as bright as a 60W incandescent IS that bright to your eye, but not to your camera. It's output is comparable to 13W of incandescent light. So 22 13W bulbs is close to 300 watts, BUT the majority of that bounces sideways and backwards and restrikes (passes through its own tube numerous times). There's a reason Kino, Mole, Arri, and even Lowel spend so much money on the design of their reflectors... and also why they don't use spiral-flo's.

Graham Bernard · January 5th, 2007, 01:17 AM

Jaron. What an excellent reply.

* Technical Information - You "illuminated" some dark areas of my own understandings - Green Spikes and equivs of illumination. Excellent and very understandable.

* Project Management - Why ARE we doing a particular project? Your SWAT or NEEDs analysis breakdown when considering doing a project. And, are there any other ways to achieve a sensible outcome.

. . and your final .. . "So 22 13W bulbs is close to 300 watts, BUT the majority of that bounces sideways and backwards and restrikes (passes through its own tube numerous times)." Is just so "spot-on".

And yes, I did similar analysis of the whys and wherefores and came to the conclusion of purchasing

* 300 watt Rifa

* Lowel Bullnosed Lens intense focusable spot(?) WITH an in-line slide-dimmer control - oh yes!

* 2 reflectors PLUS reflector bar supports

AND when you now surf about you can find some amazing prices too!

So, I decided to buy my lighting kit - and have never looked back.

Has this done ANYTHING to meet my nascent needs to exercise my D-I-Y urges? No! But I DO have a lighting kit and I'm ready to go. Do I still wish to attempt to make a lighting box? Oh yes! But then I also want to, and HAVE, improved my $60.00 SpiderBrace by adding items.

Jaron, a truly sensible and wise response - " There's a reason Kino, Mole, Arri, and even Lowel spend so much money on the design of their reflectors... and also why they don't use spiral-flo's.

December 31st, 2006, 01:03 PM	#1
David Delaney Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Niagara Ontario Canada Posts: 1,121	Anyone made a DIY kino like this? Has anyone tried to make one of these? http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=80601 I like the idea and it seems simple, but unsure where to get the parts - ie; the screen that looks like a grid that goes in front.

December 31st, 2006, 01:32 PM	#2
Brian Luce Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,290	Yes I made two. Mine has 9 lights and two switches to control it. I made it from a aluminum tubing riveted together. pretty solid. The first one had barn doors, what a pain in the ass trying to make barn doors. Don't ask why I thought barn doors would be a good idea. Here's some shots--I like the results alot. Attached Thumbnails

January 3rd, 2007, 06:58 PM	#8
Dan Brockett Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 2,109	Reply Hi David: Those CFLs at the dollar store are going to have a very low CRI. The high quality CFLs with a high CRI cost over $20.00 ea. Best, Dan

January 4th, 2007, 11:23 AM	#12
Jaron Berman Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 439	True, not very portable. But I'm not clear how a commercially-made steel enclosure (with lamps securely mounted inside) could be any more prone to damage than a homemade enclosure and cardboard boxes full of CFL lamps? For the non- DIY route, you may consider a Lowel Tota and a softbox. Takes about 2 min to setup and is perfectly soft, and extremely bright. Plus there are a lot of accessories on the market for that particular rig (like egg-crates off many different angles). In the end, it's probably cheaper to just buy something read-made like that, if you consider your the time you spend on-set trying to assemble your diy light. Probably a lot brighter (I would guess a single tota is about 3 times brighter than your 22 lamps), more compact, and easier to set up. Or for a bit more cash, a Rifalite. I've always been one to try and build before I buy. But something I've learned over the years is that there is often a reason why the vast majority of people don't build their own lighting gear. And while I'd like to think that most people don't because they aren't able, that's only part of it. Trying to design and build a system from scratch menas that to achieve anywhere near the success of a commercial system, you'll have to test and fail a lot of experiments... meaning that if you're trying to achieve a solution to an application which already exists, you're more than likely going to spend more money and time than if you were to just buy it in the first place. I agree that Kino Flo's are overpriced. However, we no longer are stuck with Kino as the only Flo manufacturer on the market. Having built a number of fluorescent lights, I can attest that there is a lot of engineering that goes into making something that is truly ready for day-in day-out field use. But if the goal is simply a soft-light bank which is portable and inexpensive - well there are literally hundreds of solutions on the market already. When you factor your time building this thing, as well as the time you spend on set screwing lamps, and balancing out the giant green spike, and the lack of color rendition that cfl's can provide, and the cost of higher CRI lamps.... well this isn't a cheap project at all anymore. If people here have already done it; congrats! If not, I would suggest sitting down to answer a few questions of one's self: 1- why do I want this light 2- what can it do that other lights cannot 3- how long does it take to set up? 4- what is the actual output compared to similar lights?* 5- what accessories can be found or made for it? 6- when it breaks in the field, how can I improvise? Where can I find spare parts? 7- how long will it take to build, (3 x how long you think)? 8- how much will it cost to build (2 x what's budgeted)? 9- would production rent it when its completed?????? You may find that production is wary to allow home-built lighting on set, not only because of the image it creates, but because of safety concerns. Are you willing to take the responsibility that comes with your equipment starting a fire due to a wiring "whoops?" When discussing ACTUAL output, remember that besides Kino or Osram TV/Film specific lamps, all fluorescents have HUGE green spikes. Green is typically 4-6 times brighter than the rest of the spectrum, so when measuring brightness, they are taking a reading off the brightest part of the spectrum. When you white balance, or filter out that spike, you're left with a smooth-ish spectrum that's about 5 times less bright than "rated." So a 13w CFL bulb which claims to be as bright as a 60W incandescent IS that bright to your eye, but not to your camera. It's output is comparable to 13W of incandescent light. So 22 13W bulbs is close to 300 watts, BUT the majority of that bounces sideways and backwards and restrikes (passes through its own tube numerous times). There's a reason Kino, Mole, Arri, and even Lowel spend so much money on the design of their reflectors... and also why they don't use spiral-flo's. Last edited by Jaron Berman; January 4th, 2007 at 11:15 PM.*

December 31st, 2006, 01:37 PM	#3
Brian Luce Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,290	and here's a good link: http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=82380

December 31st, 2006, 02:05 PM	#4
David Delaney Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Niagara Ontario Canada Posts: 1,121	Do you have shots of the unit? When I go to the thread you stated, it won't let me see the jpgs. Also is there a parts list with locations to purchase? I am especially interested in the grid sheet that goes on the front.

January 3rd, 2007, 03:46 PM	#6
Jay Dee Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: europe Posts: 32	I've been thinking about building those lights but I can't seem to find those spiral lamps with a decent CRI in 220v. I don't even know if they exist... JD

January 3rd, 2007, 04:48 PM	#7
David Delaney Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Niagara Ontario Canada Posts: 1,121	I've seen the spiral lights at the dollar store...

January 3rd, 2007, 10:34 PM	#9
Brian Luce Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,290	The still off this link were shot with home depot spirals. They look good to me but I don't have DP eyes. http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=82380 Brian

January 3rd, 2007, 11:15 PM	#10
Jaron Berman Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 439	Ok, so not to be the stick in the mud.... but why go to all this trouble? When people compare output and wattage between Kino's and Tungsten, they're comparing soflights of the same shape and general softness to one another. There's a vast difference in output between a series of tubes (long) stacked in front of reflectors, and a grid of spiral flo's behind diffusion. Yes, flo's are more efficient than tungsten lamps, but if you have to diffuse them again to achieve the same effect (a large, even light source) as a stack of 4 tubes... well you're working against yourself. Fluorescent tubes are advantageous because of their shape and efficiency. They are naturally diffuse sources - light is emitted along the entire length of the tube in all directions at roughly equal brightness. Sprial flo's were intended for use in conventional lampshades to fill the place of frosted bulbs. Using a grid of spiral flos is like taking your perfectly shaped tube, coiling it up (so it restrikes itself), and then trying to use it like a standard tungsten bulb, and then using bounce and diffusion to force the light back into the shape it's naturally in (with a straight tube)! Plus, with all the support, frame, extra diffusion, etc... you're kinda negating any of the advantages of the flo source to begin with. The design in question is like a "chicken coup," the difference being that chicken coups are generally constructed to use very hard, very bright tungsten sources in a way which makes them soft and even. So here's a suggestion - go to the depot, and buy a 4 tube fixture. Whether its 4' long or 2' long is up to you. Either way, all the work will basically be done for you. To mount to a stand, open it up and drill a 5/8" hole in it. Use fender washers on both sides and a full-thread bolt. Leave about 4" of bolt sticking out the back. Clamp that in a grip head and you'll have a flexible, cheap and very soft light.... which should be about twice as bright as the design suggested here. Oh, and the advantage is you can buy nice osram tubes in any flavor of color temp... or just get cheap tubes and white balance away. I'd shy away from Kino tubes - Kino ballasts overdrive their tubes, meaning that in a standard ballast they'll appear slightly magenta. Work smarter, not harder.

January 4th, 2007, 02:41 AM	#11
Brian Luce Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,290	good points Jaron but one advantage of the spiral system is it packs into a tight, highly portable kit. Your solution would be bulkier and more prone to damage for a location shoot. However, it IS time consuming to screw in the spirals and unscrew them for a shoot. In my case it's 22 bulbs so that 44 screws. And in this case, lots of screwing is not a good thing...

January 5th, 2007, 01:17 AM	#13
Graham Bernard Old Boot Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London UK Posts: 3,633	Jaron. What an excellent reply. * Technical Information - You "illuminated" some dark areas of my own understandings - Green Spikes and equivs of illumination. Excellent and very understandable. * Project Management - Why ARE we doing a particular project? Your SWAT or NEEDs analysis breakdown when considering doing a project. And, are there any other ways to achieve a sensible outcome. . . and your final .. . "So 22 13W bulbs is close to 300 watts, BUT the majority of that bounces sideways and backwards and restrikes (passes through its own tube numerous times)." Is just so "spot-on". And yes, I did similar analysis of the whys and wherefores and came to the conclusion of purchasing * 300 watt Rifa * Lowel Bullnosed Lens intense focusable spot(?) WITH an in-line slide-dimmer control - oh yes! * 2 reflectors PLUS reflector bar supports AND when you now surf about you can find some amazing prices too! So, I decided to buy my lighting kit - and have never looked back. Has this done ANYTHING to meet my nascent needs to exercise my D-I-Y urges? No! But I DO have a lighting kit and I'm ready to go. Do I still wish to attempt to make a lighting box? Oh yes! But then I also want to, and HAVE, improved my $60.00 SpiderBrace by adding items. Jaron, a truly sensible and wise response - " There's a reason Kino, Mole, Arri, and even Lowel spend so much money on the design of their reflectors... and also why they don't use spiral-flo's.