High Definition with Elphel model 333 camera

John Wyatt · May 26th, 2006, 09:02 AM

Wayne -- RE GigE camera heads: I found through Google the "GE" series by Prosilica. The best is the GE-1600 which is a 2 megapixel Sony CCD camera, 1600 x 1220 x 15 fps (but can ROI to get you back up to 24 fps), progressive scan, 12-bit digitising, global shutter (hey!), can use cheap 100 meter long network cable, C-mount for lens, includes an SDK (not clear about the out-of-box software). Their previous similar spec Firewire cameras were $2k - $3k, so this one probably at least that much (have not contacted them for a quote). Wonder if there will be cheaper ones coming along -- GigE PCI cards for a desktop are cheap, and more notebooks are including GigE ports as well (just need cheap cameras now!).

Their website:
www.prosilica.com

Regards,
John.

Forrest Schultz · May 26th, 2006, 09:39 AM

15fps at 1600x1220. how can it do 24 at that resolution if it can only do 15? isnt the ROI like a windowing function?

Wayne Morellini · May 26th, 2006, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donnie Wagner

I said "should" and "whole host"
not "know" and "thousands".

Rob at Graftek (http://www.graftek.com) discussed it with me. He said that "when new faster connectivity standards come out so do new devices that can take take advantage of the extra bandwidth; ; so expect a whole host of new industrial cameras in a few months." Made sense to me, so I thought I'd voice my enthusiasm.

I was asking which, and letting you know that there already were. Thanks for the follow up.

John,

There is at least dozens of manufactures of box cameras out there, too many to check, and there are many USB, GIGE and Firewire models. Just remember USB2.0 gets performance problems because the processor is forced to divide more time to run the interface.

My technical thread has a number of links through it to lists of manufacturers of cameras and sensors etc, and to cameras themselves, so you can find most of them.

Lots of these manufacturers are quiet expensive for what you get, and probably don't ship with software to record to disk in a pro video fashion (so be careful to find out).

Wayne Morellini · May 26th, 2006, 10:17 AM

Well, I am here to let you know I am wrapping up on the DIY cameras, and have posted some lengthy informative project summary posts in my "Home Made HD Cinema Cameras - Technical Discussion" thread. I am just dropping by to let you know they are there, and are well worth the read. The thread itself, probably lists half of what you need to know there from this site. If the two posts suddenly disappear, please ask the moderators to restore them.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....&postcount=470
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....&postcount=471

The Technical Discussion thread itself:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=28781

John Wyatt · May 26th, 2006, 03:02 PM

Forrest -- sorry I didn't make it clear; yes, when you ROI a smaller frame size within the max frame size (to get faster fps) obviously the frame size is smaller (usual trade-off); I simply meant that this camera has the ROI ability to give you the faster fps.

Wayne -- all the best: you gave a great impetus to many (including me) who have this crazy idea they want to modify cameras to make movies...

Regards,
John.

Forrest Schultz · May 26th, 2006, 08:40 PM

thanks John, I got ya.

Oscar Spierenburg · May 29th, 2006, 04:45 PM

As far as I can see in my tests: with the camera set on 85% quality or more, most of the 'bad' compression artifacts are minimized.
What is left is a small grid pattern and much larger blocks. Both of those can be minimized too when you put a box-blur of 0,4 or 0,5 on the image. The image itself will hardly loose detail ánd you can now put a bit of an unsharp-mask on it without sharpening the compression effects.
Here is a test (on the right has the box-blur filter). You have to save the image and zoom in to notice the difference.
(Note that the images are a just fraction of the whole image, so the grain you see is just 'normal' grain, not compression noise)
I'll do some better tests soon, but I'm very busy this week...so..

Donnie Wagner · May 30th, 2006, 07:25 PM

[QUOTE=Oscar Spier]As far as I can see in my tests: with the camera set on 85% quality or more, most of the 'bad' compression artifacts are minimized.......QUOTE]

Oscar or Forrest,
Any luck trying higher frame rates. Check page 9 for my question posted if you missed it.

Thanks.

Wayne,
I mis-read your response last time. Need to read more slowly. thanks.

Forrest Schultz · May 30th, 2006, 08:09 PM

Donnie. i have done the slo-mo tests. upto 120 fps i think. and the slo-mo is there, and looks good. But when you window it that small, the resolution isnt all that great. i think it is even sub-sd at 640 x 480. Its alot harder to make everything in this package work for you than i had first invisioned.

Matteo Pozzi · June 6th, 2006, 08:31 AM

I've found a link to a list of firewire camera on the market
http://damien.douxchamps.net/ieee1394/cameras/index.php

maybe is usefull for you!
Matteo

Matteo Pozzi · June 6th, 2006, 08:44 AM

what do you think about the
Marlin F-131 http://www.alliedvisiontec.com/produ...=18&a=selectid
990 euros!

Serge Victorovich · June 9th, 2006, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matteo Pozzi

what do you think about the
Marlin F-131 http://www.alliedvisiontec.com/produ...=18&a=selectid
990 euros!

Looks like IBIS sensor based camera. You can find a lot info about this cmos sensor in treads like this:
http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=25808
http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=28781
http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=35227

and especially in tread dedicated to Drake camera:
"Rai & Markus' "Drake" HD camera"
http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=34339

Matteo Pozzi · June 9th, 2006, 06:19 AM

many thanks
Matteo Pozzi

Matteo Pozzi · June 13th, 2006, 06:52 AM

Hi to all sorry for my prevews post ...wrong place!
I want to know if it is possible to use the elphel camera under win xp or only under linux and about the camera hardware :
how many f-stop dynamic range have the elphel 333?
comparing the images to the image of the SI-1920hdvr camera that have 10 f-stop dynamic range the image looks washed out, is that a wrong setup or not?
many thanks Matteo Pozzi

Wayne Morellini · June 13th, 2006, 11:03 AM

It could be the lens quality, even the setup or codec/processing, but yes you are right. I noticed this from the beginning and it is severe.

Yes, I am still subscribed, waiting till the 433 comes ;).

May 26th, 2006, 09:02 AM	#136
John Wyatt Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: West Country, UK Posts: 141	GigE Wayne -- RE GigE camera heads: I found through Google the "GE" series by Prosilica. The best is the GE-1600 which is a 2 megapixel Sony CCD camera, 1600 x 1220 x 15 fps (but can ROI to get you back up to 24 fps), progressive scan, 12-bit digitising, global shutter (hey!), can use cheap 100 meter long network cable, C-mount for lens, includes an SDK (not clear about the out-of-box software). Their previous similar spec Firewire cameras were $2k - $3k, so this one probably at least that much (have not contacted them for a quote). Wonder if there will be cheaper ones coming along -- GigE PCI cards for a desktop are cheap, and more notebooks are including GigE ports as well (just need cheap cameras now!). Their website: www.prosilica.com Regards, John. Last edited by John Wyatt; May 27th, 2006 at 04:14 AM.

May 26th, 2006, 10:17 AM	#139
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Wrapping up! Well, I am here to let you know I am wrapping up on the DIY cameras, and have posted some lengthy informative project summary posts in my "Home Made HD Cinema Cameras - Technical Discussion" thread. I am just dropping by to let you know they are there, and are well worth the read. The thread itself, probably lists half of what you need to know there from this site. If the two posts suddenly disappear, please ask the moderators to restore them. http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....&postcount=470 http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....&postcount=471 The Technical Discussion thread itself: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=28781

May 29th, 2006, 04:45 PM	#142
Oscar Spierenburg Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: (The Netherlands - Belgium) Posts: 735	About the compression.... As far as I can see in my tests: with the camera set on 85% quality or more, most of the 'bad' compression artifacts are minimized. What is left is a small grid pattern and much larger blocks. Both of those can be minimized too when you put a box-blur of 0,4 or 0,5 on the image. The image itself will hardly loose detail ánd you can now put a bit of an unsharp-mask on it without sharpening the compression effects. Here is a test (on the right has the box-blur filter). You have to save the image and zoom in to notice the difference. (Note that the images are a just fraction of the whole image, so the grain you see is just 'normal' grain, not compression noise) I'll do some better tests soon, but I'm very busy this week...so..

May 30th, 2006, 07:25 PM	#143
Donnie Wagner Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 135	Fps? [QUOTE=Oscar Spier]As far as I can see in my tests: with the camera set on 85% quality or more, most of the 'bad' compression artifacts are minimized.......QUOTE] Oscar or Forrest, Any luck trying higher frame rates. Check page 9 for my question posted if you missed it. Thanks. Wayne, I mis-read your response last time. Need to read more slowly. thanks.

May 26th, 2006, 09:39 AM	#137
Forrest Schultz Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atwater, CA Posts: 246	15fps at 1600x1220. how can it do 24 at that resolution if it can only do 15? isnt the ROI like a windowing function?

May 26th, 2006, 03:02 PM	#140
John Wyatt Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: West Country, UK Posts: 141	Forrest -- sorry I didn't make it clear; yes, when you ROI a smaller frame size within the max frame size (to get faster fps) obviously the frame size is smaller (usual trade-off); I simply meant that this camera has the ROI ability to give you the faster fps. Wayne -- all the best: you gave a great impetus to many (including me) who have this crazy idea they want to modify cameras to make movies... Regards, John.

May 26th, 2006, 08:40 PM	#141
Forrest Schultz Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atwater, CA Posts: 246	thanks John, I got ya.

May 30th, 2006, 08:09 PM	#144
Forrest Schultz Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Atwater, CA Posts: 246	Donnie. i have done the slo-mo tests. upto 120 fps i think. and the slo-mo is there, and looks good. But when you window it that small, the resolution isnt all that great. i think it is even sub-sd at 640 x 480. Its alot harder to make everything in this package work for you than i had first invisioned.

June 6th, 2006, 08:31 AM	#145
Matteo Pozzi Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Milan, Italy Posts: 169	I've found a link to a list of firewire camera on the market http://damien.douxchamps.net/ieee1394/cameras/index.php maybe is usefull for you! Matteo

June 6th, 2006, 08:44 AM	#146
Matteo Pozzi Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Milan, Italy Posts: 169	what do you think about the Marlin F-131 http://www.alliedvisiontec.com/produ...=18&a=selectid 990 euros!

June 9th, 2006, 06:19 AM	#148
Matteo Pozzi Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Milan, Italy Posts: 169	many thanks Matteo Pozzi

June 13th, 2006, 06:52 AM	#149
Matteo Pozzi Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Milan, Italy Posts: 169	Hi to all sorry for my prevews post ...wrong place! I want to know if it is possible to use the elphel camera under win xp or only under linux and about the camera hardware : how many f-stop dynamic range have the elphel 333? comparing the images to the image of the SI-1920hdvr camera that have 10 f-stop dynamic range the image looks washed out, is that a wrong setup or not? many thanks Matteo Pozzi

June 13th, 2006, 11:03 AM	#150
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	It could be the lens quality, even the setup or codec/processing, but yes you are right. I noticed this from the beginning and it is severe. Yes, I am still subscribed, waiting till the 433 comes ;).