4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project at DVinfo.net

Obin Olson · May 10th, 2004, 09:09 PM

ok new thread started,

What I am doing.
Taking a 16mm Russian film camera and converting it to digital HD 720p 60fps single sensor CMOS chip

Digital parts.

Taking a board camera with a Micron CMOS chip 1280x1024 10bit, and a frame grabber with CameraLink software/hardware and building a tiny PC to take on-set for image capture/record.

So far.

Getting test images from camera/chip combos to see what is the best design for this system. Looking at colors, saturation, contrast and dynamic range of the units.

Next steps.

Buy camera/capture board combo and order Russian 16mm film camera and start tests.

question, what is the mm of 16mm filmstock? is it really 16mm? is that wide? high? or diagonal? if it's 16mm diagonal then I need to make sure that my chip is no bigger then 16mm..if it was smaller it would have a crop factor...how would you deal with this for VFX shots that need camera tracking for CGI??

can anyone help me answer the questions above? also an update, looks like the raw electronics will cost $2500 plus a computer with RAID and the 16mm body....this will do 48fps so you could get 1/2 speed at 24fps playback...how good is 1/2 speed? Will I want more then that amount of slomo for "film-style" slow motion effects? I have never shot film so I don't know how slow 1/2 is..anyone?? I guess that is like taking 30fps and playing it back at 15fps right? but it will be smooth ;)

Rob Lohman · May 11th, 2004, 10:12 AM

48 at half slow-motion is indeed 24 fps. Should look fine. You can
also write the capture software to just drop every other frame
and just write 24 fps to disk.

Obin Olson · May 11th, 2004, 01:14 PM

very good, because of the rolling shutter artifact I will need to shoot no less then 48fps all the time to get rid of the artifact...

update:

trying to get the price down a bit for this "test" order ;)

test images..I will post them when I get home today

Laurence Maher · May 11th, 2004, 05:56 PM

Hey Obin,

Saw you on the dvx100 conversion and smx camera threads and see you're going through with this. When you way shooting at 48 fps and slowing to 24 are you looking to play back in regular motion, just with better quality for effects, or are you just talking about just making a slow motion image for a visual effect. (May sound like a silly question, but don't know how you fx guys work). I shot a 16mm feature, so I know a little about it. However, I know very little about camera insides. So you're gonna make a 1 chip HD out of a16mm camera, huh? I've got a CP16 with 32 frame overcrank and an excellent Canon 12-120 zoom/macro focus on it. Can't get myself to well it cause it was my first feature camera, but maybe if I listen to you I can convert it. Of course, I'm shooting features, so I would need great storage. Are you still planning on getting one of the Summix cameras if they come out (not sure if their creation is official or what)?. All these camera mods get me so excited that I may actually be able to make/buy one soon and make flicks that stand a real chance of theatrical release. Keep us posted!!!!! Good Luck.

Obin Olson · May 11th, 2004, 09:36 PM

Mr. Maher, are you from India? also I am not using sumix cameras I will be using a single cmos chip that can output 1280x720 for that HD standard....I will use the 48fps for slow motion effects...how slow does your 16mm look with it's overcranking?

Laurence Maher · May 12th, 2004, 04:18 PM

Obin,

No, the name is of Irish descent, (you're talking to an anglo-mutt from Denton, Texas). It's not all that slow. I'm not sure what you need for fx work. This looks about like . . . ummmm . . . well, a little more than half speed. Good for dramatic effect when running, or in a kind of "character realization" state, or someone taking some bullets in the chest. . . if you remember back to Terminator 2, I think there's a scene that probably used around the same speed when Linda Hamilton is setting up Cyberdine to be destroyed, cops show up and start shooting at people. (I know I pulled that out of my butt, but where you guys think in tech, I think in scenes, etc.) Anyway, how's the camera coming thus far?

Obin Olson · May 13th, 2004, 11:55 AM

wow great test image today...I will try and post it up

http://www.dv3productions.com/test_i...00 Rebecca.bmp

Les Dit · May 13th, 2004, 12:08 PM

Why are you using a 16mm film camera body? Lets see:
Film transport mechanism and gate : don't need.
shutter: don't need.
film magazines: don't need
What's left?
All you need is the lens, and lens mount part.
Perhaps it would be simpler to use a box with a lens mount on the front.
-Les

Obin Olson · May 13th, 2004, 12:35 PM

I want the "film" viewfinder and a camera that is a "real" camera not a box with a lens! :) I DP alot for our company and I would not be seen with a box and lens setup on a big shoot ;)

oh btw that "test" image above is NOT a good bayer filter conversion...that is why you see all the jaggy's on the edges of stuff

and a 2nd test pic:

http://www.dv3productions.com/test_i...ncorrected.bmp

Laurence Maher · May 13th, 2004, 03:29 PM

Obin,

(Call me Larry).

Keep me posted on the Obin-cam. I'd like to see the finished product. What cam's were you using to get true slow mo video?

Obin Olson · May 13th, 2004, 03:59 PM

I will start with 48FPS with this system at 1280x720 as a max frame-rate so I can still get 1/2 speed slo-mo at 24fps...after this tests out then I will buy a much higher speed framegrabber so I can do atleast 60fps ...looks like the order is going in today for the system!!! yahooo!!!! can't wait!!!

software guys are telling me that I can program the capture software to skip frames! this is REALLY good because it allows me to run the camera at 60fps all the time and avoid the "rolling shutter" artifact!!

The day of great chroma keys is nearing.....

the obi-oneCAM maybe? ;) LOL

Filip Kovcin · May 13th, 2004, 05:04 PM

obin, can you explain me who is the producer of that board camera you mentioned?

thank you,

filip

p.s.

your text:

==========
Taking a board camera with a Micron CMOS chip 1280x1024 10bit, and a frame grabber with CameraLink software/hardware and building a tiny PC to take on-set for image capture/record.
==========

James Ball · May 13th, 2004, 05:25 PM

I have a K3 got it on ebay from a guy in Belarus. Shipping was a bit steep $60.00 but I got a pristine camera for $170.

The K3s are dirt cheap.

The American cinematographer's manual will tell you the exact aperture dimensions. 16mm is from side to side. The real difference is that some cameras the K3 included use film perfed at both sides.

Super16 has the film perfed on one side and the aperture plate is enlarged to take advantage of the additional negative space where the perfs were.

I'll go dig out my 12th ed. tomorrow at work if someone doesn't post in the mean time.

Filip Kovcin · May 13th, 2004, 05:28 PM

ok.

that was too fast, now i know that micron in obin's text is not anything connected with size or whatever, but the company name itself. ok. sorry.

so, the producer is micron.com. is this correct?

filip

Obin Olson · May 13th, 2004, 05:32 PM

yes

May 10th, 2004, 09:09 PM	#1
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	4:4:4 10bit single CMOS HD project ok new thread started, What I am doing. Taking a 16mm Russian film camera and converting it to digital HD 720p 60fps single sensor CMOS chip Digital parts. Taking a board camera with a Micron CMOS chip 1280x1024 10bit, and a frame grabber with CameraLink software/hardware and building a tiny PC to take on-set for image capture/record. So far. Getting test images from camera/chip combos to see what is the best design for this system. Looking at colors, saturation, contrast and dynamic range of the units. Next steps. Buy camera/capture board combo and order Russian 16mm film camera and start tests. question, what is the mm of 16mm filmstock? is it really 16mm? is that wide? high? or diagonal? if it's 16mm diagonal then I need to make sure that my chip is no bigger then 16mm..if it was smaller it would have a crop factor...how would you deal with this for VFX shots that need camera tracking for CGI?? can anyone help me answer the questions above? also an update, looks like the raw electronics will cost $2500 plus a computer with RAID and the 16mm body....this will do 48fps so you could get 1/2 speed at 24fps playback...how good is 1/2 speed? Will I want more then that amount of slomo for "film-style" slow motion effects? I have never shot film so I don't know how slow 1/2 is..anyone?? I guess that is like taking 30fps and playing it back at 15fps right? but it will be smooth ;)

May 11th, 2004, 10:12 AM	#2
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	48 at half slow-motion is indeed 24 fps. Should look fine. You can also write the capture software to just drop every other frame and just write 24 fps to disk. __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

May 13th, 2004, 05:04 PM	#12
Filip Kovcin Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: warsaw, poland Posts: 440	to obin obin, can you explain me who is the producer of that board camera you mentioned? thank you, filip p.s. your text: ========== Taking a board camera with a Micron CMOS chip 1280x1024 10bit, and a frame grabber with CameraLink software/hardware and building a tiny PC to take on-set for image capture/record. ==========

May 13th, 2004, 05:25 PM	#13
James Ball Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Sulphur, LA Posts: 61	Camera Choice I have a K3 got it on ebay from a guy in Belarus. Shipping was a bit steep $60.00 but I got a pristine camera for $170. The K3s are dirt cheap. The American cinematographer's manual will tell you the exact aperture dimensions. 16mm is from side to side. The real difference is that some cameras the K3 included use film perfed at both sides. Super16 has the film perfed on one side and the aperture plate is enlarged to take advantage of the additional negative space where the perfs were. I'll go dig out my 12th ed. tomorrow at work if someone doesn't post in the mean time.

May 13th, 2004, 05:28 PM	#14
Filip Kovcin Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: warsaw, poland Posts: 440	to obin - MICRON is ... ok. that was too fast, now i know that micron in obin's text is not anything connected with size or whatever, but the company name itself. ok. sorry. so, the producer is micron.com. is this correct? filip

May 11th, 2004, 01:14 PM	#3
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	very good, because of the rolling shutter artifact I will need to shoot no less then 48fps all the time to get rid of the artifact... update: trying to get the price down a bit for this "test" order ;) test images..I will post them when I get home today

May 11th, 2004, 05:56 PM	#4
Laurence Maher Join Date: May 2004 Location: denton, texas, usa Posts: 416	Hey Obin, Saw you on the dvx100 conversion and smx camera threads and see you're going through with this. When you way shooting at 48 fps and slowing to 24 are you looking to play back in regular motion, just with better quality for effects, or are you just talking about just making a slow motion image for a visual effect. (May sound like a silly question, but don't know how you fx guys work). I shot a 16mm feature, so I know a little about it. However, I know very little about camera insides. So you're gonna make a 1 chip HD out of a16mm camera, huh? I've got a CP16 with 32 frame overcrank and an excellent Canon 12-120 zoom/macro focus on it. Can't get myself to well it cause it was my first feature camera, but maybe if I listen to you I can convert it. Of course, I'm shooting features, so I would need great storage. Are you still planning on getting one of the Summix cameras if they come out (not sure if their creation is official or what)?. All these camera mods get me so excited that I may actually be able to make/buy one soon and make flicks that stand a real chance of theatrical release. Keep us posted!!!!! Good Luck.

May 11th, 2004, 09:36 PM	#5
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	Mr. Maher, are you from India? also I am not using sumix cameras I will be using a single cmos chip that can output 1280x720 for that HD standard....I will use the 48fps for slow motion effects...how slow does your 16mm look with it's overcranking?

May 12th, 2004, 04:18 PM	#6
Laurence Maher Join Date: May 2004 Location: denton, texas, usa Posts: 416	Obin, No, the name is of Irish descent, (you're talking to an anglo-mutt from Denton, Texas). It's not all that slow. I'm not sure what you need for fx work. This looks about like . . . ummmm . . . well, a little more than half speed. Good for dramatic effect when running, or in a kind of "character realization" state, or someone taking some bullets in the chest. . . if you remember back to Terminator 2, I think there's a scene that probably used around the same speed when Linda Hamilton is setting up Cyberdine to be destroyed, cops show up and start shooting at people. (I know I pulled that out of my butt, but where you guys think in tech, I think in scenes, etc.) Anyway, how's the camera coming thus far?

May 13th, 2004, 11:55 AM	#7
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	wow great test image today...I will try and post it up http://www.dv3productions.com/test_i...00 Rebecca.bmp

May 13th, 2004, 12:08 PM	#8
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	Why are you using a 16mm film camera body? Lets see: Film transport mechanism and gate : don't need. shutter: don't need. film magazines: don't need What's left? All you need is the lens, and lens mount part. Perhaps it would be simpler to use a box with a lens mount on the front. -Les

May 13th, 2004, 12:35 PM	#9
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	I want the "film" viewfinder and a camera that is a "real" camera not a box with a lens! :) I DP alot for our company and I would not be seen with a box and lens setup on a big shoot ;) oh btw that "test" image above is NOT a good bayer filter conversion...that is why you see all the jaggy's on the edges of stuff and a 2nd test pic: http://www.dv3productions.com/test_i...ncorrected.bmp

May 13th, 2004, 03:29 PM	#10
Laurence Maher Join Date: May 2004 Location: denton, texas, usa Posts: 416	Obin, (Call me Larry). Keep me posted on the Obin-cam. I'd like to see the finished product. What cam's were you using to get true slow mo video?

May 13th, 2004, 03:59 PM	#11
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	I will start with 48FPS with this system at 1280x720 as a max frame-rate so I can still get 1/2 speed slo-mo at 24fps...after this tests out then I will buy a much higher speed framegrabber so I can do atleast 60fps ...looks like the order is going in today for the system!!! yahooo!!!! can't wait!!! software guys are telling me that I can program the capture software to skip frames! this is REALLY good because it allows me to run the camera at 60fps all the time and avoid the "rolling shutter" artifact!! The day of great chroma keys is nearing..... the obi-oneCAM maybe? ;) LOL

May 13th, 2004, 05:32 PM	#15
Obin Olson Trustee Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wilmington NC Posts: 1,414	yes