Vegas Video discussions from 2004 (Q3Q4)

Brian Mitchell Warshawsky · July 21st, 2004, 08:33 AM

The Premiere feature I saw had numbers, say, 1 through 7, with a click on each one bringing up a new timeline within the main timeline.

The "Takes" feature sounds interesting, but what I liked about this Premiere feature was the ability to have one file open with numerous timelines (and numerous effects, transitions, etc.) within, and the ability to switch these around on the fly, putting one scene before another, etc.

Otherwise, if a two hour production were to be done, with multiple tracks and effects, and you wish to insert a single frame or re-edit one scene, the entire project must be adjusted.

I do not believe individual Subclips would provide the same feature, but perhaps Subclips and Regions combined would.

Neon's storyboard feature is also very promising, and if there is no Vegas procedure analogous to the Premiere feature, perhaps a script could be created?

If anyone has a simple solution, please let me know.

Thanks,

Brian

Edward Troxel · July 21st, 2004, 08:54 AM

Sounds like you are talking about having multiple timelines in one project. Vegas does not currently do this. However, I do what you mention for every project. I simply create a different project for each section of the video and render each section out separately when completed. I then start a "Final" project and bring all of these rendered sections together for the final print or DVD render.

If you need multiple timelines open at the same time, remember you can open Vegas multiple times with different projects open in each one.

Brian Mitchell Warshawsky · July 21st, 2004, 09:10 AM

Edward,

Thanks for the confirmation, and as I recall from a previous note of yours, each rendered track (if rendered as an uncompressed .avi) should remain lossless throughout this process.

Seems like a useful tool for the next gen of Neon (or perhaps part of a new script aimed more for film projects?).

Imagine using the storyboard feature to reveal the action occuring within each Sub-Timeline.

Now this would be useful for a long-form program.

Brian

Edward Troxel · July 21st, 2004, 09:14 AM

I render to DV-AVI - not uncompressed. I see no reason to go uncompressed as you're not gaining anything by doing so. Besides, to PTT you have to go back to DV-AVI. For rendering, the UNCHANGED sections are simply copied anyway so there's no loss at all for those sections. For the sections that did change, the Sony codec does great for many generations so I doubt you'll see a problem with one or two renders.

The scripting API is not yet powerful enough to implement something of this nature. Too many things you can't yet access.

Brian Mitchell Warshawsky · July 21st, 2004, 01:11 PM

So the big question is:

How far does this go to providing a usable alternative to a ShuttlePRO ?

Brian

Edward Troxel · July 21st, 2004, 01:29 PM

Well I just tested it and it actually shuttles pretty well using that method. I think I still prefer the shuttle for that, though. But beyond that, my shuttle has 13 buttons (new one has 15 buttons, I think) where that mouse only has 4 left.

Dennis Vogel · July 21st, 2004, 01:32 PM

Well, I let the peak file rebuild and re-rendered the DVD files. I played the VOB file and it was fine. I played the entire DVD from disk and it played fine. I made a DVD and it played fine on my set-top player.

As another experiment, I removed the peak file and started making another DVD to disk before the peak file had rebuilt. The individual VOB and the DVD files played fine. So I can't say it was due to starting the DVD render before the peak file was rebuilt. Perhaps I hit a button somewhere that stopped the audio from being added (DVDA2's interface is a lot busier than DVDA1). Or maybe it was a fluke.

Dennis Vogel

Edward Troxel · July 21st, 2004, 01:46 PM

Glad to hear you at least had a successful conclusion.

Brian Zamen · July 21st, 2004, 04:51 PM

I have some mixed footage that I am trying to put together in Vegas. Some shot with dvx100a in 24pA and other with a consumer camera.

Would it be better to have the project properties in NTSC 29.97 instead of NTSC 24p?

If I want the 24p look I suppose the standard footage could be converted in Vegas, output and then dropped into the project with the 24p properties and footage. I thought I read a whitepaper that the conversion step isn't required in Vegas, however, I think I read somewhere else that you should take all your 60i footage convert it in Vegas, output and then edit it all in 24p.

I have had problems in the past when I had to mix 60i and 24pA, most likely due to the vertical resolution loss in the standard footage...it had horribly visible "scan lines". That coupled with the project being in widescreen.

Is going from 24p to 60i "easier" with better quality than going from 60i to 24p?

Patrick King · July 21st, 2004, 05:58 PM

That's one of the thing's I haven't got around to playing with in Vegas5 yet. I'm somewhat intimidated by the process even though I've read (and reread) their white paper on the subject. I think I understand the process when I finish the white paper, but it doesn't seem to stick long.

http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.com/download/step1.asp?catid=16

Brian Zamen · July 21st, 2004, 06:05 PM

Yeah, I believe that is one of the white papers I have read as well.

Glenn Chan · July 22nd, 2004, 09:57 AM

I'm not too familiar with the various pulldown modes of the DVX100, but two of them will look fine when played back (the other one does 2:2:2:4 or something like that, which will look wrong).

I would probably edit all in 60i. You save time and you really don't get much benefit from editing 24p.

Ryan Gohlinghorst · July 22nd, 2004, 11:22 AM

Usually the way this is done is to shoot 24p standard, then combine it with the 60i footage on a 29.97 timeline. The 24pA footage will also work, but you won't get the benefit of shooting in the Advanced mode.

Brian Zamen · July 22nd, 2004, 11:28 AM

That is probably what we will do. I have to add more footage and I really want the 24p look to it.

The dilema is one of the guys only likes to work/shoot with widescreen and I think we will lose too much vertical resolution on the standard footage so I am probably going to shoot the additional footage without digital squeeze on.

I prefer to shoot in 24pA though with 2332 pulldown.

David Jasany · July 22nd, 2004, 07:08 PM

Edward, I determined the cause of the aspect ratio problem was my source photo. I thought I was saving the photos in 655 x 480, but that wasn't the case.

I resolved that matter in my photo editing software and dropped them into Vegas. The pictures now fully fill the frame. In Pan/Crop, match aspect ratio is yes. Works like a champ! Also using your writup to create the photo montage, which also works great. Very simple.

July 21st, 2004, 01:29 PM	#231
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	Well I just tested it and it actually shuttles pretty well using that method. I think I still prefer the shuttle for that, though. But beyond that, my shuttle has 13 buttons (new one has 15 buttons, I think) where that mouse only has 4 left. __________________ Edward Troxel [SCVU] JETDV Scripts/Scripting Tutorials/Excalibur/Montage Magic/Newsletters

July 21st, 2004, 01:46 PM	#233
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	Glad to hear you at least had a successful conclusion. __________________ Edward Troxel [SCVU] JETDV Scripts/Scripting Tutorials/Excalibur/Montage Magic/Newsletters

July 21st, 2004, 04:51 PM	#234
Brian Zamen Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: USA Posts: 25	mixing 24p with 60i I have some mixed footage that I am trying to put together in Vegas. Some shot with dvx100a in 24pA and other with a consumer camera. Would it be better to have the project properties in NTSC 29.97 instead of NTSC 24p? If I want the 24p look I suppose the standard footage could be converted in Vegas, output and then dropped into the project with the 24p properties and footage. I thought I read a whitepaper that the conversion step isn't required in Vegas, however, I think I read somewhere else that you should take all your 60i footage convert it in Vegas, output and then edit it all in 24p. I have had problems in the past when I had to mix 60i and 24pA, most likely due to the vertical resolution loss in the standard footage...it had horribly visible "scan lines". That coupled with the project being in widescreen. Is going from 24p to 60i "easier" with better quality than going from 60i to 24p?

July 22nd, 2004, 11:22 AM	#238
Ryan Gohlinghorst Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Mankato, Minnesota Posts: 104	Usually the way this is done is to shoot 24p standard, then combine it with the 60i footage on a 29.97 timeline. The 24pA footage will also work, but you won't get the benefit of shooting in the Advanced mode. __________________ http://www.horsefilms.com "I like Mankato just a little bit better than any other town in the world." -Sinclair Lewis

July 21st, 2004, 08:33 AM	#226
Brian Mitchell Warshawsky Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bay Area Posts: 216	The Premiere feature I saw had numbers, say, 1 through 7, with a click on each one bringing up a new timeline within the main timeline. The "Takes" feature sounds interesting, but what I liked about this Premiere feature was the ability to have one file open with numerous timelines (and numerous effects, transitions, etc.) within, and the ability to switch these around on the fly, putting one scene before another, etc. Otherwise, if a two hour production were to be done, with multiple tracks and effects, and you wish to insert a single frame or re-edit one scene, the entire project must be adjusted. I do not believe individual Subclips would provide the same feature, but perhaps Subclips and Regions combined would. Neon's storyboard feature is also very promising, and if there is no Vegas procedure analogous to the Premiere feature, perhaps a script could be created? If anyone has a simple solution, please let me know. Thanks, Brian

July 21st, 2004, 08:54 AM	#227
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	Sounds like you are talking about having multiple timelines in one project. Vegas does not currently do this. However, I do what you mention for every project. I simply create a different project for each section of the video and render each section out separately when completed. I then start a "Final" project and bring all of these rendered sections together for the final print or DVD render. If you need multiple timelines open at the same time, remember you can open Vegas multiple times with different projects open in each one.

July 21st, 2004, 09:10 AM	#228
Brian Mitchell Warshawsky Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bay Area Posts: 216	Edward, Thanks for the confirmation, and as I recall from a previous note of yours, each rendered track (if rendered as an uncompressed .avi) should remain lossless throughout this process. Seems like a useful tool for the next gen of Neon (or perhaps part of a new script aimed more for film projects?). Imagine using the storyboard feature to reveal the action occuring within each Sub-Timeline. Now this would be useful for a long-form program. Brian

July 21st, 2004, 09:14 AM	#229
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	I render to DV-AVI - not uncompressed. I see no reason to go uncompressed as you're not gaining anything by doing so. Besides, to PTT you have to go back to DV-AVI. For rendering, the UNCHANGED sections are simply copied anyway so there's no loss at all for those sections. For the sections that did change, the Sony codec does great for many generations so I doubt you'll see a problem with one or two renders. The scripting API is not yet powerful enough to implement something of this nature. Too many things you can't yet access.

July 21st, 2004, 01:11 PM	#230
Brian Mitchell Warshawsky Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bay Area Posts: 216	So the big question is: How far does this go to providing a usable alternative to a ShuttlePRO ? Brian

July 21st, 2004, 01:32 PM	#232
Dennis Vogel Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hillsborough, NC Posts: 409	Well, I let the peak file rebuild and re-rendered the DVD files. I played the VOB file and it was fine. I played the entire DVD from disk and it played fine. I made a DVD and it played fine on my set-top player. As another experiment, I removed the peak file and started making another DVD to disk before the peak file had rebuilt. The individual VOB and the DVD files played fine. So I can't say it was due to starting the DVD render before the peak file was rebuilt. Perhaps I hit a button somewhere that stopped the audio from being added (DVDA2's interface is a lot busier than DVDA1). Or maybe it was a fluke. Dennis Vogel

July 21st, 2004, 05:58 PM	#235
Patrick King Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Enterprise, AL Posts: 857	That's one of the thing's I haven't got around to playing with in Vegas5 yet. I'm somewhat intimidated by the process even though I've read (and reread) their white paper on the subject. I think I understand the process when I finish the white paper, but it doesn't seem to stick long. http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.com/download/step1.asp?catid=16

July 21st, 2004, 06:05 PM	#236
Brian Zamen Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: USA Posts: 25	Yeah, I believe that is one of the white papers I have read as well.

July 22nd, 2004, 09:57 AM	#237
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	I'm not too familiar with the various pulldown modes of the DVX100, but two of them will look fine when played back (the other one does 2:2:2:4 or something like that, which will look wrong). I would probably edit all in 60i. You save time and you really don't get much benefit from editing 24p.

July 22nd, 2004, 11:28 AM	#239
Brian Zamen Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: USA Posts: 25	That is probably what we will do. I have to add more footage and I really want the 24p look to it. The dilema is one of the guys only likes to work/shoot with widescreen and I think we will lose too much vertical resolution on the standard footage so I am probably going to shoot the additional footage without digital squeeze on. I prefer to shoot in 24pA though with 2332 pulldown.

July 22nd, 2004, 07:08 PM	#240
David Jasany Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: North Carolina Posts: 313	Edward, I determined the cause of the aspect ratio problem was my source photo. I thought I was saving the photos in 655 x 480, but that wasn't the case. I resolved that matter in my photo editing software and dropped them into Vegas. The pictures now fully fill the frame. In Pan/Crop, match aspect ratio is yes. Works like a champ! Also using your writup to create the photo montage, which also works great. Very simple.