Any Canon HV20 users with Vegas? at DVinfo.net

David Jasany · May 31st, 2007, 12:47 PM

Time is running out on my old & trusty Canon Elura. Now that the Canon HV20 is here, what do guys think of it? It seems like it has the right prosumer features I've been waiting for. Thanks.

Chris Barcellos · May 31st, 2007, 12:59 PM

I have the FX1 and got the HV20 as a camera my wife said she wanted to shoot. I haven't let her get to it since I got it, because I have been using it with my Letus35a, and have been using it more than the FX1 for various projects. While it doesn't have exactly traditional controls, the control are easily manipulated to give control of Fstop and shutter speed, and other variables. With the 24p, it is a great way to go to learn the craft...

Chris Barcellos · May 31st, 2007, 01:14 PM

Followup: Vegas will not do the actual pulldown for proper processing of 24p footage. There has been a "free" process developed by users here on this forum, but I have laid out $ 200.00 to get into Connect HD and updated it free to NeoHDV, in order to do pull down at capture, and to have access in Vegas to the advance Cineform codec for editing purposes.

David Jasany · May 31st, 2007, 01:53 PM

Thanks Chris. I've read the posts concerning the 24p pulldown issue with the HV20. I don't really understand the issues surrounding this matter, but I don't think I was going to record in 24p anyway (at least not right away).

Some have said the ergonomics of the HV20 is the camera's biggest drawback. I need to find a local source for the camera and see how it feels along with the layout of the controls.

Jim Rog · May 31st, 2007, 04:24 PM

Do you still have to do the pulldown if you have the pal version 50i

Guy Bruner · May 31st, 2007, 05:31 PM

No. Pulldown only applies to NTSC.

Douglas Spotted Eagle · May 31st, 2007, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guy Bruner

No. Pulldown only applies to NTSC.

not quite. ;-)
Pulldown only applies to 24p.
NTSC is only SD, not HD. NTSC/PAL are dead in terms of references in the HD world. There are only framerates now; it's all ATSC.

Chris Barcellos · May 31st, 2007, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Jasany

Thanks Chris. I've read the posts concerning the 24p pulldown issue with the HV20. I don't really understand the issues surrounding this matter, but I don't think I was going to record in 24p anyway (at least not right away).

Some have said the ergonomics of the HV20 is the camera's biggest drawback. I need to find a local source for the camera and see how it feels along with the layout of the controls.

David:

I was a bit concerned, too. As far as the toggle and menu access, it has become second nature to me in a short time.

Manual focus is another issue. The focus wheel is just plain inadequate, in my opinion, though with a little work, you can get proficient enought to survive. I actually believe the instant autofocus is superb, and once you learn where the focus sweet spot is, you can do a decent job of manipulating the shot to keep the subject you want in focus, in focus...

Early on, I had no use for the view finder, being preconditioned by early review that it was not good. However, one day I mounted the camera to a self built shoulder mount, and put my Letus35a on the other end. I decide to use the viewfinder. After getting it to focus for my eyes, I was surprised that I was able, even with the shoulder mount, actually get a good view of the shot.... Its not so bad after all... And it works better with the manual focus wheel too...

Don Donatello · May 31st, 2007, 10:26 PM

i have the orginal Elura ... i just got the HV20 last friday ... now visiting the grand children in texas ...
i find the controls on the HV20 very similar to the Elura -no control for gain
and you work around it using the exposure lock ....
i wouldn't use " proconsumer" to describe teh HV 20 .
IMO it doesn't feel as solid built as the Elura ...very plastic feel to it and the TOGGLE just feels odd ( not solid) ......
it does produce very good images for the $$$ ...

i'm just now starting to notice (it's annoying) the so called "wobble" images when the camera has fast-sudden movement ( notice it on tripod- wind causing camera to vibrate or just bad hand holding - doesn't matter if stabilization is on or off) - and it is a concern - so far only happens in 24p HDV mode ...

Douglas Spotted Eagle · May 31st, 2007, 10:43 PM

Donatello!
Was just thinking about you a few minutes ago; shot a rack of custom-made Hawaiian shirts...:-)
Your discovery with the HV20 is the same thing I found with the 10 and 20; the form factor is wonderful but the OIS is a real problem. I wish there was a way to turn off all stabilization in the cam, but no such luck. Even turned off, there is some stabilizing factor at play.

David Jasany · June 1st, 2007, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Donatello

i have the original Elura ... i just got the HV20 last friday ... now visiting the grand children in texas ...
i find the controls on the HV20 very similar to the Elura -no control for gain
and you work around it using the exposure lock ....
i wouldn't use " proconsumer" to describe teh HV 20 .
IMO it doesn't feel as solid built as the Elura ...very plastic feel to it and the TOGGLE just feels odd ( not solid) ......
it does produce very good images for the $$$ ...

i'm just now starting to notice (it's annoying) the so called "wobble" images when the camera has fast-sudden movement ( notice it on tripod- wind causing camera to vibrate or just bad hand holding - doesn't matter if stabilization is on or off) - and it is a concern - so far only happens in 24p HDV mode ...

Thanks Don. I also have the original Elura but the zoom works intermittently and sometimes it zooms by itself. Funny, I've actually had a few nice smooth inadvertent zoom shots because of it. FYI, Canon officially discontinued service on the Elura as of the first of this year.

On paper it seems like the HV20 is a good replacement for the Elura. I'm beginning to understand the issue with 24p and pulldown, and I've sent Canon an email asking if they intend to upgrade the camera's firmware to support the pulldown flags. I suspect the answer is no, but at least I gave it a shot.

I'm disappointed about the wobble your experiencing with optical stabilization while shooting in 24p. I'm not sure I was going to shoot in 24p, but it is one of the camera's main selling features. I'm also going to take a look at the Sony HDR-HC7 but I haven't been particularly fond of Sony's cameras. The HC7 doesn't support 24p.

Dave

Guy Bruner · June 1st, 2007, 06:53 AM

Spot is absolutely right. NTSC and ATSC are different things.

David Jasany · June 1st, 2007, 12:07 PM

Here's Canon response to my 24p pulldown question. I posted the entire response even though the answer simply is Canon doesn't have any plans of modifying the HV20's feature set.

"In the USA as well as many other countries the Canon HV20 offers a
selectable shooting mode which uses true 24 Frame progressive shooting
to give your video a more cinematic look. These frames of video are
recorded onto the tape or output via the HDMI, IEEE1394 or composite
terminals by adding a "2:3 pull-down" to convert the 24 Frames in 30
Frames to be compatible with Televisions and monitors. This is the same
industry standard system used to show "Hollywood" movies on Television.
Most consumer software packages are capable of editing this video in the
same way as any other DV or HDV video. However some high end customers
have requested the ability to import the video into professional video
editing suites and applying a 2:3 pulldown to the footage which allows
the individual 24 Frames to be extracted.

In HDV (one of the many recording formats of HD video), Canon uses 2
systems of recording 24 Frame video. In our Pro 3 CCD products when you
are using the 24 Frame mode, we record the 24 Frames directly to HDV
tape (there is no 2:3 pulldown). This means that when you import the
footage to an editing system, the footage is already 24 Frames and can
be placed directly on a 24 Frame timeline. This is true 24P recording.
The other system is applies a 2:3 pulldown to the 24F video and records
it as 30 Frame on the HDV tape. We use this system in our consumer class
camcorders.

Since the Canon HV20 is a consumer class of camcorder it does not
include a feature to record 24 Frame video directly to HDV tape. By not
including this feature, frame extraction is somewhat more difficult,
requiring that the editor manually identify the 2:3 pulldown, then the
editing program can extract the 24 Frame video. This process varies from
one editing program to the other and may not be available on all
programs.
These requests are being noted and forwarded on to our product
development department to determine the feasibility to add this feature
to the HV20 or a future consumer model.

However, at this time, there are no plans to modify the HV20's feature
set in any way."

David Jasany · June 1st, 2007, 05:44 PM

I'm still a little fuzzy on what's needed to edit 24p from the HV20. Does Vegas 7e include a third party product to do the pulldown? Or, do I need to buy something like Cineform's Neo? Thanks.

Guy Bruner · June 1st, 2007, 06:36 PM

Vegas does not support detection and pulldown removal on the HV20. Cineform Neo will detect and remove pulldown as it captures the video. Check out the HV10/20 forum for a free application that will also remove pulldown.

May 31st, 2007, 12:47 PM	#1
David Jasany Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: North Carolina Posts: 313	Any Canon HV20 users with Vegas? Time is running out on my old & trusty Canon Elura. Now that the Canon HV20 is here, what do guys think of it? It seems like it has the right prosumer features I've been waiting for. Thanks.

May 31st, 2007, 12:59 PM	#2
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	I have the FX1 and got the HV20 as a camera my wife said she wanted to shoot. I haven't let her get to it since I got it, because I have been using it with my Letus35a, and have been using it more than the FX1 for various projects. While it doesn't have exactly traditional controls, the control are easily manipulated to give control of Fstop and shutter speed, and other variables. With the 24p, it is a great way to go to learn the craft... __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

May 31st, 2007, 01:14 PM	#3
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Followup: Vegas will not do the actual pulldown for proper processing of 24p footage. There has been a "free" process developed by users here on this forum, but I have laid out $ 200.00 to get into Connect HD and updated it free to NeoHDV, in order to do pull down at capture, and to have access in Vegas to the advance Cineform codec for editing purposes. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

May 31st, 2007, 10:43 PM	#10
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	Donatello! Was just thinking about you a few minutes ago; shot a rack of custom-made Hawaiian shirts...:-) Your discovery with the HV20 is the same thing I found with the 10 and 20; the form factor is wonderful but the OIS is a real problem. I wish there was a way to turn off all stabilization in the cam, but no such luck. Even turned off, there is some stabilizing factor at play. __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

June 1st, 2007, 06:53 AM	#12
Guy Bruner Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ashford, AL Posts: 937	Spot is absolutely right. NTSC and ATSC are different things. Last edited by Guy Bruner; June 1st, 2007 at 02:14 PM. Reason: I was wrong.

May 31st, 2007, 01:53 PM	#4
David Jasany Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: North Carolina Posts: 313	Thanks Chris. I've read the posts concerning the 24p pulldown issue with the HV20. I don't really understand the issues surrounding this matter, but I don't think I was going to record in 24p anyway (at least not right away). Some have said the ergonomics of the HV20 is the camera's biggest drawback. I need to find a local source for the camera and see how it feels along with the layout of the controls.

May 31st, 2007, 04:24 PM	#5
Jim Rog Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: PAL Zone Posts: 188	Do you still have to do the pulldown if you have the pal version 50i

May 31st, 2007, 05:31 PM	#6
Guy Bruner Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ashford, AL Posts: 937	No. Pulldown only applies to NTSC.

May 31st, 2007, 10:26 PM	#9
Don Donatello Hawaiian Shirt Mogul Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: northern cailfornia Posts: 1,261	i have the orginal Elura ... i just got the HV20 last friday ... now visiting the grand children in texas ... i find the controls on the HV20 very similar to the Elura -no control for gain and you work around it using the exposure lock .... i wouldn't use " proconsumer" to describe teh HV 20 . IMO it doesn't feel as solid built as the Elura ...very plastic feel to it and the TOGGLE just feels odd ( not solid) ...... it does produce very good images for the $$$ ... i'm just now starting to notice (it's annoying) the so called "wobble" images when the camera has fast-sudden movement ( notice it on tripod- wind causing camera to vibrate or just bad hand holding - doesn't matter if stabilization is on or off) - and it is a concern - so far only happens in 24p HDV mode ...

June 1st, 2007, 12:07 PM	#13
David Jasany Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: North Carolina Posts: 313	Canon's response to 24p Pulldown on HV20 Here's Canon response to my 24p pulldown question. I posted the entire response even though the answer simply is Canon doesn't have any plans of modifying the HV20's feature set. "In the USA as well as many other countries the Canon HV20 offers a selectable shooting mode which uses true 24 Frame progressive shooting to give your video a more cinematic look. These frames of video are recorded onto the tape or output via the HDMI, IEEE1394 or composite terminals by adding a "2:3 pull-down" to convert the 24 Frames in 30 Frames to be compatible with Televisions and monitors. This is the same industry standard system used to show "Hollywood" movies on Television. Most consumer software packages are capable of editing this video in the same way as any other DV or HDV video. However some high end customers have requested the ability to import the video into professional video editing suites and applying a 2:3 pulldown to the footage which allows the individual 24 Frames to be extracted. In HDV (one of the many recording formats of HD video), Canon uses 2 systems of recording 24 Frame video. In our Pro 3 CCD products when you are using the 24 Frame mode, we record the 24 Frames directly to HDV tape (there is no 2:3 pulldown). This means that when you import the footage to an editing system, the footage is already 24 Frames and can be placed directly on a 24 Frame timeline. This is true 24P recording. The other system is applies a 2:3 pulldown to the 24F video and records it as 30 Frame on the HDV tape. We use this system in our consumer class camcorders. Since the Canon HV20 is a consumer class of camcorder it does not include a feature to record 24 Frame video directly to HDV tape. By not including this feature, frame extraction is somewhat more difficult, requiring that the editor manually identify the 2:3 pulldown, then the editing program can extract the 24 Frame video. This process varies from one editing program to the other and may not be available on all programs. These requests are being noted and forwarded on to our product development department to determine the feasibility to add this feature to the HV20 or a future consumer model. However, at this time, there are no plans to modify the HV20's feature set in any way."

June 1st, 2007, 05:44 PM	#14
David Jasany Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: North Carolina Posts: 313	I'm still a little fuzzy on what's needed to edit 24p from the HV20. Does Vegas 7e include a third party product to do the pulldown? Or, do I need to buy something like Cineform's Neo? Thanks.

June 1st, 2007, 06:36 PM	#15
Guy Bruner Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ashford, AL Posts: 937	Vegas does not support detection and pulldown removal on the HV20. Cineform Neo will detect and remove pulldown as it captures the video. Check out the HV10/20 forum for a free application that will also remove pulldown.