Is Cineform the answer to my issues?

[Marcus Marchesseault]

I'm new to both Vegas and HDV editing (I've shot HDV since the first day the FX1 hit the shelves). It's time for me to start editing and I keep coming up with an issue that it seems the Cineform codec might solve.

Here is what I want to accomplish with my footage:

1. Rotate 180 degrees after shooting with the Brevis35 adapter.

2. Perform extensive color correction. I have a specific look that I want and it might even take two passes to accomplish.

3. Use the Dynapel interpolative slow-motion software from Goodervideo.com that only operates on .AVI files.

4. Use the VirtualDub Deshaker plugin to stabilize handheld footage (I use a stabilizer, but it's not perfect).

I know that Cineform (Neo HDV?) can rotate footage on capture and should help during color correction, but does it make a standard .AVI file that can be used with applications outside of Vegas? So far, I'm impressed with Vegas but it's not perfect for everything. I really like the freedom to use outside applications, but .M2T isn't universal.

Also, which Cineform product is right for me? I'm using Vegas 7 and have a Core2Duo 2.4GHz editing machine with 2Gig of RAM. It seems that my machine is more than fast enough for Cineform live capture/conversion and maybe even 180 degree rotation which alone might be worth the $249 if Neo HDV is indeed the right product. BTW, I shoot with a V1 and most likely will use 30p but 24p isn't totally out of the question.

Are there any other benefits to Cineform products?

[Mike Kujbida]

I don't do HDV so can't answer most of your questions :-(

For rotating clips, there's a free HDV flip tool at
http://www.mirkwood.com/vegas/flip/

However, you might be interested in this response (on the Sony forum) from Cineform:

CineForm's Connect HD doesn't soften the image in its 180 degree flip as the flip is performed in the uncompressed YUV data before the CineForm compression is applied, in a field aware manner (it does swap without mixing the top and bottom fields.) The problem with a downstream NLE flip, is the top field will end up in the bottom field slot, requiring the software to interpolate the "in between" scan line, that is way your post flip looks soft (your Vegas flip adds a vertical blur.) Doing a lossless 180 degree flip in an NLE is a trick -- you need to do a frame based one pixel shift to restore top and bottom field alignment during the flip (I'm not sure how to do that in Vegas.)

David Newman
CTO, CineForm

[David Newman]

Marcus,

The one of the big advantages of using CineForm products is the wide range of application support you get using standard AVI and now also MOV wrapper. NEO HDV/HD/2K all work with >99% of PC apps and the support for Mac apps is growing.

[Jon Omiatek]

I use Cineform and Vegas and I can get any of Dynaples software to work on HDV avi files. It sure would be nice to use there products on my hdv stuff.

Jon

[Marcus Marchesseault]

Jon, there are a few typos in your post. Do you mean to say that Dynapel's software DOESN'T work? I know that Ben Winter uses some slow-motion software on his HDV stuff, but I don't know his workflow or software.

[Ben Hayflick]

David, is NEO HDV fully compatible with Adobe Premiere Pro 2 (and the upcoming CS3)?

[David Newman]

in a limited form yes -- not a replacement for aspect hd.

[Ben Hayflick]

Thanks David. I am deciding whether to upgrade from PPro 1.5 to 2/CS3, or whether to jump to the Vegas route. How is Aspect HD superior to Neo HDV? Why does it cost twice as much?

[Laurence Kingston]

Just to be clear, Dynapel software does NOT work with Cineform codec video clips. I have issues with Cineform performance in almost every program outside of Vegas, Virtualdub and WMP.

A tremendous benefit of using the Cineform codec in Vegas is it's ability to smart-render. Not only does this keep you from loosing generations (although Cineform is tremendous for multi-generations), but it speeds up rendering of Cineform masters incredibly. If you are doing a typical project where the majority of the footage is unprocessed and you have mostly cuts with an odd fancier transition here and there, a smart-render master is almost as fast as a file copy. Also, any sections which are rendered in Cineform will smart-render into a Cineform master. This is incredibly useful as you can prerender difficult sections and painlessly fold them into your final Cineform master. This is, IMHO, probably the biggest advantage of using Cineform.

[David Newman]

Originally Posted by Ben Hayflick

Thanks David. I am deciding whether to upgrade from PPro 1.5 to 2/CS3, or whether to jump to the Vegas route. How is Aspect HD superior to Neo HDV? Why does it cost twice as much?

NEO HDV is our range of codecs with a capture and conversion tool called HDLink -- Aspect HD includes all of NEO HDV plus an accelerator for Premiere Pro, real-time transitions, motion, overlay and color correction filters. Aspect HD makes PPro run 2-3 times faster for most PCs -- some PC wouldn't be editing HD without Aspect HD. As for Aspect HD with PPro, vs NEO HDV with Vegas, Aspect HD will support more RT video layers, but it is a user interface preference that drives the choice, some prefer Vegas, some Premiere.

[Ben Hayflick]

Thanks again David.

[Marcus Marchesseault]

"any sections which are rendered in Cineform will smart-render into a Cineform master."

That IS a very useful aspect. I think I'm sold on Cineform.

"Just to be clear, Dynapel software does NOT work with Cineform codec video clips. I have issues with Cineform performance in almost every program outside of Vegas, Virtualdub and WMP."

Are you saying that Virtualdub works? If I get multiple benefits in Vegas and at least Virtualdub works, I'm definitely getting NEO HDV. I can go to uncompressed for the Dynapel slow motion, but if I have to use uncompressed for almost everything it limits the usefulness of Cineform.

[David Newman]

If there is an issue with Dynapel (which package?) using CineForm AVI, try it using CineForm MOV Files. Some tools have broken AVI interfaces, so it is handy to have a back door. Sorenson Sequence is like this, struggles with compressed AVIs, works fine with compressed MOV, even when the same data is within it. The new HDLink allows you to losslessly rewrap an MOV to an AVI or visa versa as needed.

[Marcus Marchesseault]

I didn't get any help from goodervideo.com about the Dynapel software and Cineform but I do know it is only supposed to work with .AVI files. Ben Winter says that Cineform files work with VirtualDub, so my problems are at least half solved. I suppose if there is another interpolative software package that works with Cineform or I resolve to using uncompressed for slomo, Neo HDV should still fix a number of my issues.

[Jon Omiatek]

Originally Posted by Jon Omiatek

I use Cineform and Vegas and I can get any of Dynaples software to work on HDV avi files. It sure would be nice to use there products on my hdv stuff.

Jon

Sorry, I should proof read.....

I use Cineform V3.0 and Vegas 7.0e. I cannot get any of Dynapels software to work on HDV.AVI files. The software doesn't recognize them as valid files. It works great with DV.avi files



Cineform does a great job at deinterlacing footage from m2t to cineform avi.

Jon