Troubles with Film Effects Filter in Vegas 6 at DVinfo.net

Joel Bradley · April 17th, 2007, 05:24 PM

For some reason, it doesn't work. It seems like the grain and the scratches stay in one place and never move. Can anyone help me?

Fred Goltz · April 19th, 2007, 05:52 AM

Hi Joel,

Yes, I've been disappointed by this effect in Vegas as well. It just seems to put a generic "mask" of scratches et al over what's playing in behind, instead of getting the "scratches, dust and hair" to move all around the screen like it should look.

I've tried to think of other ways you could do it (like composting something, then superimposing it over my main video, but I haven't experimented yet.

Possibly, you could open a video timeline above your main video timeline and "insert empty event". Apply the "film effect" you desire to that event for seven or eight frames, then insert another "empty event" for another seven to ten frames, applying the "film effect" more heavily...keep repeating the process for as long as you need it, applying the effect heavy, light, lighter, heavier (mix it up). When the "empty event" with the desired effects on it is superimposed down on your main timeline, it will have the "appearance" of moving around, since the lines, scratches and dust will change every seven to ten frames.

I know this isn't the answer you wanted, but it might work. (I'm going to try it as soon as I finish typing this..lol).

Hope someone else can help you more.

P.S- Save and render your "empty event" with the effects on it for future use!

Vincent Croce · April 19th, 2007, 06:54 AM

The filter works perfectly well for me, the particle fx aren't stuck in one place at all. I'm using Vegas 7, but I don't recall having the problem you mention when I used it in 6. Do you have that problem with all the presets?
That composting idea of Fred's sounded interesting, but I need all I've got for the wife's garden...j/k Fred...

Ian Stark · April 19th, 2007, 07:33 AM

Agreed it's not the best 'old film' filter available (I think you need to look at 55mm or MB's plugins for AE for a more realistic effect - hackneyed as it is!!) but personally I am not experiencing the non-movement of particles and scratches as suggested.

Are you aware you can control the individual particle types (ie 'on or off' and 'amount') by clicking on the 'Type' drop down menu? It's a bit misleading at first glance as the 'enable particles' checkbox appears to relate to all particle types at once, rather than individually.

Also, the separate Film Grain filter seems to give marginally better results than the Grain control in the Film Effects filter (go on, someone tell me they both use the same engine!) with control over Amount, Granularity and Chromacity.

While typing this I've had a quick play with the two filters in combo.

Depending on what you want to achieve I think you can actually come up with some reasonably pleasing results if you use the particles in moderation - especially hair and scratches, which tend to be the least realistic.

Lose the grain in the Film Effects filter and use the Film Grain effect instead.

I also added a velocity envelope to the clip, set at around 140%. That added a little something. Shooting your footage with a slow shutter might help this along.

You might also add just a split second every now and then of the TV Simulator with all values set to hard left except Line Sync (hard right) and Vertical Sync (around half way) - you'll see what I mean! Just a half second should do it. A graphic overlay of just the edges of a piece of celluloid would look great here!

You have a little more control over the film tinting if you use the Sepia filter rather than the Color function in Film Effects (set 'tint' to zero and 'convert to greyscale' checked on in the Film Effects filter).

More? I added a real tiny splash of Glow (reminded me of Flash Gordon or Sky Captain) and experimented with (and then removed cos I didn't like it) a little Sharpen (depends what look you want).

Finally, don't shoot microwaves, jet aircraft, SUV's or punk rockers. They just don't look like they come from the right era.

There you go, something to play around with!

Ian . . .

Graham Bernard · April 20th, 2007, 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joel Bradley

For some reason, it doesn't work. It seems like the grain and the scratches stay in one place and never move. Can anyone help me?

I remembered that in V6 there was a bug that was fixed in V6b. This from the SONY Update site for V6: "A bug that prevented animation of the Film Effects plug-in has been fixed. "

What Version and build of V6 are you running?

Fred Goltz · April 20th, 2007, 08:00 AM

BOY WAS I WRONG!!!

Okay Joel,

After a little tinkering, I think I know how to do the effect you are looking for.

1) Open up the video effect of "film effects"...set up whatever effect you want, dust, scratches, jitter, etc.

AT THE VERY BOTTOM OF THE BOX THAT OPENS when you select film effects, there is a "shuttle" at the bottom (that little vertical bar that crosses over our timelines that shows up where we are)...You have to MOVE IT AS YOU CHANGE YOUR EFFECT...in otherwords, the effects you apply to the piece of footage will simply stay STILL if you do not move the little shuttle at the bottom of the box along and change the effects slightly as it goes along. The more "intervals" in which you change effects, the "quicker" the scratches, dust or jitter will move.

(I believe this is the effect you are looking for)...or maybe I'm right out to lunch, but I had the same problem for months and I just figured how to get them to "move" today. Shoot me an email if it works. If you can't figure it out, I'll even call you and walk you through it!

Freddie.

Ian Stark · April 20th, 2007, 09:02 AM

Hi Fred,

I think Grazie's previous answer might be nearer the mark, to be honest. He's right when he says that a bug was fixed which caused the particles to remain static in an early v6 release.

The particles should appear to have motion regardless of whether you keyframe them (but obviously keyframing does allow you to increase/decrease the amount value over time).

Cheers!

Ian . . .

Vincent Croce · April 20th, 2007, 12:35 PM

Are Joel and Fred both running V6a?

Fred Goltz · April 20th, 2007, 07:44 PM

Yes, I assume we are both running V6.

Edward Troxel · April 20th, 2007, 08:39 PM

Fred, the question is: WHICH VERSION of Vegas 6 (.0 or a, b, c, or d?) If you're not on 6.0d, download and install the newest version and that effect will work correctly as it was fixed along the way.

Fred Goltz · April 28th, 2007, 11:16 AM

Thank you everyone...all is good in my land again!

August 13th, 2007, 06:33 PM

When I am editing, the 'hair' looks great in the preview window - the hairs are of a decent, realistic size, and the hair and dust randomly appears, and as quickly as you would expect.

However when I render to a full size avi it looks really bad - the hairs are tiny, and what's WORSE is, the dust and hair seems to just 'flash' - like, the same layer of dust and hair will be spread over at least TWO frames, which obviously isn't realistic at all. It just.. flashes... then there's NO dust... then there's loads of it... then none... just looks really crap. And the dust is all of equal size...

Are there any custom made filters out there that are better?

Graham Bernard · August 14th, 2007, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonny Brady

. . . when I render to a full size avi it looks really bad - the hairs are tiny, and what's WORSE is, the dust and hair seems to just 'flash' - like, the same layer of dust and hair will be spread over at least TWO frames, which obviously isn't realistic at all.

I'd suggest that you have an issue with the render, rather than the plugin. I've been using this same plug for 4 years and I don't recall anything similar to what you are explaining.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonny Brady

Are there any custom made filters out there that are better?

So, "other" plugin? I'm sure there are. Does the Vegas plugin work properly or as it is described? Yes it does. My point is that there maybe something "else" happennnging with your local situation. Getting another plugin may mean you end up with a similar prolem? Yeah?

Grazie

Douglas Spotted Eagle · August 14th, 2007, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonny Brady

When I am editing, the 'hair' looks great in the preview window - the hairs are of a decent, realistic size, and the hair and dust randomly appears, and as quickly as you would expect.

However when I render to a full size avi it looks really bad - the hairs are tiny, and what's WORSE is, the dust and hair seems to just 'flash' - like, the same layer of dust and hair will be spread over at least TWO frames, which obviously isn't realistic at all. It just.. flashes... then there's NO dust... then there's loads of it... then none... just looks really crap. And the dust is all of equal size...

Are there any custom made filters out there that are better?

If you are rendering to an NTSC or PAL standard avi file, but viewing it on a computer monitor, you're seeing effects of interlacing being displayed on a progressive screen.
yes, there are better film grain/FX filters out there, such as those found in Boris RED. RED is the only great film-look plug that also works in Vegas. Otherwise, you'll need to step to another host or processing tool.

Graham Bernard · August 14th, 2007, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

If you are rendering to an NTSC or PAL standard avi file, but viewing it on a computer monitor, you're seeing effects of interlacing being displayed on a progressive screen.

Well, that's odd Douglas. I just did a test - LCD 2nd Display Monitor compared to an External f/w to PAL CRT - and I can not, for the life of me, see a difference. I am now checking frame by frame too. I see dust changing on each and every frame, and this is on my LCD.

The rendered file is a Selective Pre-rendered file using 25fps, uncompressed LFF.

Grazie

April 17th, 2007, 05:24 PM	#1
Joel Bradley Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sayre Posts: 30	Troubles with Film Effects Filter in Vegas 6 For some reason, it doesn't work. It seems like the grain and the scratches stay in one place and never move. Can anyone help me?

April 19th, 2007, 06:54 AM	#3
Vincent Croce Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Fort Myers, FL Posts: 263	The filter works perfectly well for me, the particle fx aren't stuck in one place at all. I'm using Vegas 7, but I don't recall having the problem you mention when I used it in 6. Do you have that problem with all the presets? That composting idea of Fred's sounded interesting, but I need all I've got for the wife's garden...j/k Fred... __________________ Vin First Take Studios

April 19th, 2007, 07:33 AM	#4
Ian Stark Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hampshire, UK Posts: 2,237	Agreed it's not the best 'old film' filter available (I think you need to look at 55mm or MB's plugins for AE for a more realistic effect - hackneyed as it is!!) but personally I am not experiencing the non-movement of particles and scratches as suggested. Are you aware you can control the individual particle types (ie 'on or off' and 'amount') by clicking on the 'Type' drop down menu? It's a bit misleading at first glance as the 'enable particles' checkbox appears to relate to all particle types at once, rather than individually. Also, the separate Film Grain filter seems to give marginally better results than the Grain control in the Film Effects filter (go on, someone tell me they both use the same engine!) with control over Amount, Granularity and Chromacity. While typing this I've had a quick play with the two filters in combo. Depending on what you want to achieve I think you can actually come up with some reasonably pleasing results if you use the particles in moderation - especially hair and scratches, which tend to be the least realistic. Lose the grain in the Film Effects filter and use the Film Grain effect instead. I also added a velocity envelope to the clip, set at around 140%. That added a little something. Shooting your footage with a slow shutter might help this along. You might also add just a split second every now and then of the TV Simulator with all values set to hard left except Line Sync (hard right) and Vertical Sync (around half way) - you'll see what I mean! Just a half second should do it. A graphic overlay of just the edges of a piece of celluloid would look great here! You have a little more control over the film tinting if you use the Sepia filter rather than the Color function in Film Effects (set 'tint' to zero and 'convert to greyscale' checked on in the Film Effects filter). More? I added a real tiny splash of Glow (reminded me of Flash Gordon or Sky Captain) and experimented with (and then removed cos I didn't like it) a little Sharpen (depends what look you want). Finally, don't shoot microwaves, jet aircraft, SUV's or punk rockers. They just don't look like they come from the right era. There you go, something to play around with! Ian . . . __________________ www.vit-media.com www.classicmachinefilms.co.uk

April 20th, 2007, 09:02 AM	#7
Ian Stark Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hampshire, UK Posts: 2,237	Hi Fred, I think Grazie's previous answer might be nearer the mark, to be honest. He's right when he says that a bug was fixed which caused the particles to remain static in an early v6 release. The particles should appear to have motion regardless of whether you keyframe them (but obviously keyframing does allow you to increase/decrease the amount value over time). Cheers! Ian . . . __________________ www.vit-media.com www.classicmachinefilms.co.uk

April 20th, 2007, 12:35 PM	#8
Vincent Croce Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Fort Myers, FL Posts: 263	Are Joel and Fred both running V6a? __________________ Vin First Take Studios

April 19th, 2007, 05:52 AM	#2
Fred Goltz Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Lubbock, Texas Posts: 43	Hi Joel, Yes, I've been disappointed by this effect in Vegas as well. It just seems to put a generic "mask" of scratches et al over what's playing in behind, instead of getting the "scratches, dust and hair" to move all around the screen like it should look. I've tried to think of other ways you could do it (like composting something, then superimposing it over my main video, but I haven't experimented yet. Possibly, you could open a video timeline above your main video timeline and "insert empty event". Apply the "film effect" you desire to that event for seven or eight frames, then insert another "empty event" for another seven to ten frames, applying the "film effect" more heavily...keep repeating the process for as long as you need it, applying the effect heavy, light, lighter, heavier (mix it up). When the "empty event" with the desired effects on it is superimposed down on your main timeline, it will have the "appearance" of moving around, since the lines, scratches and dust will change every seven to ten frames. I know this isn't the answer you wanted, but it might work. (I'm going to try it as soon as I finish typing this..lol). Hope someone else can help you more. P.S- Save and render your "empty event" with the effects on it for future use!

April 20th, 2007, 08:00 AM	#6
Fred Goltz Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Lubbock, Texas Posts: 43	BOY WAS I WRONG!!! Okay Joel, After a little tinkering, I think I know how to do the effect you are looking for. 1) Open up the video effect of "film effects"...set up whatever effect you want, dust, scratches, jitter, etc. AT THE VERY BOTTOM OF THE BOX THAT OPENS when you select film effects, there is a "shuttle" at the bottom (that little vertical bar that crosses over our timelines that shows up where we are)...You have to MOVE IT AS YOU CHANGE YOUR EFFECT...in otherwords, the effects you apply to the piece of footage will simply stay STILL if you do not move the little shuttle at the bottom of the box along and change the effects slightly as it goes along. The more "intervals" in which you change effects, the "quicker" the scratches, dust or jitter will move. (I believe this is the effect you are looking for)...or maybe I'm right out to lunch, but I had the same problem for months and I just figured how to get them to "move" today. Shoot me an email if it works. If you can't figure it out, I'll even call you and walk you through it! Freddie.

April 20th, 2007, 07:44 PM	#9
Fred Goltz Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Lubbock, Texas Posts: 43	Yes, I assume we are both running V6.

April 20th, 2007, 08:39 PM	#10
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	Fred, the question is: WHICH VERSION of Vegas 6 (.0 or a, b, c, or d?) If you're not on 6.0d, download and install the newest version and that effect will work correctly as it was fixed along the way. __________________ Edward Troxel [SCVU] JETDV Scripts/Scripting Tutorials/Excalibur/Montage Magic/Newsletters

April 28th, 2007, 11:16 AM	#11
Fred Goltz Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Lubbock, Texas Posts: 43	Thank you everyone...all is good in my land again!

August 13th, 2007, 06:33 PM	#12
Guest Posts: n/a	When I am editing, the 'hair' looks great in the preview window - the hairs are of a decent, realistic size, and the hair and dust randomly appears, and as quickly as you would expect. However when I render to a full size avi it looks really bad - the hairs are tiny, and what's WORSE is, the dust and hair seems to just 'flash' - like, the same layer of dust and hair will be spread over at least TWO frames, which obviously isn't realistic at all. It just.. flashes... then there's NO dust... then there's loads of it... then none... just looks really crap. And the dust is all of equal size... Are there any custom made filters out there that are better? Last edited by Guest; August 13th, 2007 at 07:03 PM.