24p in Vegas. . .I think I'm lost at DVinfo.net

Josh Bass · April 25th, 2003, 04:23 PM

Ok, so there's a way to convert 60i footage to 24p in Vegas. Once you've done this, and made a single AVI or whatever file out of your footage, then what? Do you print to tape as 24p, with the 2-3-3-2 pulldown, or 29.97 fps? I tried it in 24p and it seems fine. I'm going to be handing this off to another editor at some point. When he imports it from tape or a CD-R, will he import it as 24p or 29.97? It'll be a segment in a show, and the rest of the show is 29.97. If he moves this file into his 29.97 project, will it play correctly? Headache. . .ouch.

Alex Knappenberger · April 25th, 2003, 04:34 PM

I didn't even know you could convert to 24p in vegas....?

Josh Bass · April 25th, 2003, 05:30 PM

Yes! I've done it! It works! Very cool. You have to have version 4.0b.

You change your project properties so the template is NTSC 24p (in America, sorry Europe, no idea) and change the deinterlace method to either interpolate fields (if i there's lots of fast motion in the clip(s)) or blend fields (if not -- also supposed to give increased vertical resolution). Apply, then right click on whatever you want rendered, and under switches, "disable resample." When rendering, you want to change the framerate to 24p , inserting 2-3-3-2 pulldown. That should be it. Might have left something out.

David Mintzer · April 25th, 2003, 05:42 PM

Vegas beat almost everyone to the punch with 24fps support---it works great.

Bruce A. Christenson · April 25th, 2003, 05:44 PM

I think you only need 4.0b in order to import 24P advanced footage from the DVX-100, to do the more complex pulldown. You can convert 30i to 24p in post with any version of Vegas. I have a Word doc I got from a SF FTP site that explains the process, in addition to adding grain and stuff to make it more 'film like'. Here's the basics (I think these are based on Vegas 3 menus/options):

The settings and steps to create clean 24p output from video are:

File > (Project) Properties > Video > Advanced > Deinterlace Method: Interpolate fields

Event Properties > Resample: On

File > Render As
Save as Type: Video for Windows (.avi)
Template: “Default template (uncompressed)” (this gives you the highest quality image, advisable since we’ll eventually recompress back to DV)
Custom > Video > Frame rate: 23.976 fps (this is the standard film frame rate used when working with NTSC video).
Custom > Video > Field Order: None (progressive scan)
If you plan on doing this more than once, save a template called “24p uncompressed.”
Render.

This process removes the 60% of the video fields, and creates a 24p clip by interpolating the remaining fields, effectively reversing the 3:2 pulldown process.

Start a new Vegas project, using the NTSC DV template.

Add the 24p uncompressed clip that you just rendered to the timeline. If it has black bars on the top and bottom, you might need to set the pixel aspect ratio in the clips media properties to “0.9091 (NTSC DV)”. Save the profile and future clips with the same properties with be auto-interpreted with this pixel aspect ratio.

Render an AVI file using the standard NTSC DV template. Vegas will automatically apply 3:2 pulldown to the 24p progressive source file, resulting in a 30i NTSC DV clip.

Alex Knappenberger · April 25th, 2003, 05:55 PM

Bruce, Josh's method seems to work better, since your outputting to 24P with the DV codec, then you bring that 24FPS avi back into Vegas, and render it back to standard 29.97FPS...it looks good as well. Using uncompressed AVI, will require lots of hard drive space.

Bruce A. Christenson · April 25th, 2003, 07:42 PM

Where are the Vegas 4 instructions on 24P conversion?

I wanna play!

Thanks

Josh Bass · April 25th, 2003, 10:54 PM

I tried Bruce's method. It seems to work, but I still get some blockiness in the video where there was none before. Is it something I'm doing wrong? Or is it just from so much alteration from the original footage before rendering?

It's not super blocky, but if I can tell on my little panasonic TV, then that can't be a good sign. This is using the uncompressed setting.

When you do the 24p conversion with something like magic bullet, do you get these same results? Does it have a better codec then SoFo or something?

Bruce A. Christenson · April 26th, 2003, 07:32 PM

Do you mean blockiness in terms of stuttery movement, or compression-style blocks reducing resolution?

I know if you don't select 'resample' in the clip properties in Vegas 3, after applying things like time compression/expansion, it won't render quite right, even to uncompressed AVI.

I'll have to mess with Vegas 4 soon.

Josh Bass · April 26th, 2003, 11:20 PM

Compresson style blocks. When I selected resample (in Vegas 4, you have the option of "smart resample" or "force resample") I tried resample--the movement looked weird. When I disabled resample, it looked right, but it had the blocks.

Bruce A. Christenson · April 26th, 2003, 11:58 PM

The vegas 4 instructions are in the help menu, under 24P. I think that's the way to go !

Josh Bass · April 27th, 2003, 12:59 AM

Well, I tried their instructions. That's how I got the blocks! I tried the way you said earlier, except in a project with 24p as the project's framerate, and with smart resample on. Resampling causes in increase in the amount of blur during motion, which is kind of disorienting (but no blocks--or very hard-to-notice ones. Disabling resample results in a sharper, cleaner picture, but you get the blocks no matter what quality or amount of compression you choose. These are my findings.

Bruce A. Christenson · April 27th, 2003, 11:56 PM

I shot a few minutes of my dog running around and then made a 1 minute movie out of it in Vegas 4. I followed the 24P instructions in the help menu, and made a 24P AVI. I also made a "regular" MPEG-2.

I then made a "24P" MPEG-2 from the 24P AVI by putting the AVI into a new Vegas project and rendering that to MPEG-2.

There is a 24P MPEG-2 template, but whenever I used that, the result always looked really jerky and incorrect. So I always used the regular NTSC MPEG-2 template.

I burned both files to a DVD+RW with DVD Architect, and watched them both. I selected PCM for the audio, instead of AC-3, but it still said it was going to compress my audio. What is up with that?

The regular MPEG-2 looks like regular video.

The 24P MPEG-2 looks ok. I might need to experiment with the deinterlace method, I used the one for more motion. My wife said it looks like something from the 70's, or a documentary or something. I guess that means its got the goods!

Bob Benkosky · April 30th, 2003, 04:11 PM

Let's see someone's footage of Vegas's 24p output.

Now, this obviously can be done to any footage, but what about FRAME MOVIE mode with the GL2.

Are there benefits to using FMM if we can just shoot at 60, then move down to 24p or even 29.97.

Bruce A. Christenson · April 30th, 2003, 06:46 PM

My problem is that if I make ~10 MB WMV clips from 60i and 24p AVI source, it won't look all that different on the computer. The big difference is when I go watch a DVD of the two clips on my TV.

I want to try comparing 30p also, if possible to see if that makes it look a little better, but still have that film motion quality.

April 25th, 2003, 04:23 PM	#1
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	24p in Vegas. . .I think I'm lost Ok, so there's a way to convert 60i footage to 24p in Vegas. Once you've done this, and made a single AVI or whatever file out of your footage, then what? Do you print to tape as 24p, with the 2-3-3-2 pulldown, or 29.97 fps? I tried it in 24p and it seems fine. I'm going to be handing this off to another editor at some point. When he imports it from tape or a CD-R, will he import it as 24p or 29.97? It'll be a segment in a show, and the rest of the show is 29.97. If he moves this file into his 29.97 project, will it play correctly? Headache. . .ouch. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

April 25th, 2003, 05:30 PM	#3
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	Yes! I've done it! It works! Very cool. You have to have version 4.0b. You change your project properties so the template is NTSC 24p (in America, sorry Europe, no idea) and change the deinterlace method to either interpolate fields (if i there's lots of fast motion in the clip(s)) or blend fields (if not -- also supposed to give increased vertical resolution). Apply, then right click on whatever you want rendered, and under switches, "disable resample." When rendering, you want to change the framerate to 24p , inserting 2-3-3-2 pulldown. That should be it. Might have left something out. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

April 25th, 2003, 10:54 PM	#8
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	I tried Bruce's method. It seems to work, but I still get some blockiness in the video where there was none before. Is it something I'm doing wrong? Or is it just from so much alteration from the original footage before rendering? It's not super blocky, but if I can tell on my little panasonic TV, then that can't be a good sign. This is using the uncompressed setting. When you do the 24p conversion with something like magic bullet, do you get these same results? Does it have a better codec then SoFo or something? __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

April 26th, 2003, 11:20 PM	#10
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	Compresson style blocks. When I selected resample (in Vegas 4, you have the option of "smart resample" or "force resample") I tried resample--the movement looked weird. When I disabled resample, it looked right, but it had the blocks. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

April 27th, 2003, 12:59 AM	#12
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	Well, I tried their instructions. That's how I got the blocks! I tried the way you said earlier, except in a project with 24p as the project's framerate, and with smart resample on. Resampling causes in increase in the amount of blur during motion, which is kind of disorienting (but no blocks--or very hard-to-notice ones. Disabling resample results in a sharper, cleaner picture, but you get the blocks no matter what quality or amount of compression you choose. These are my findings. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

April 25th, 2003, 04:34 PM	#2
Alex Knappenberger High School Student Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Canton, Ohio, USA Posts: 609	I didn't even know you could convert to 24p in vegas....?

April 25th, 2003, 05:42 PM	#4
David Mintzer Rextilleon Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Pleasantville, NY Posts: 520	Vegas beat almost everyone to the punch with 24fps support---it works great.

April 25th, 2003, 05:44 PM	#5
Bruce A. Christenson Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Forest Grove, OR Posts: 122	I think you only need 4.0b in order to import 24P advanced footage from the DVX-100, to do the more complex pulldown. You can convert 30i to 24p in post with any version of Vegas. I have a Word doc I got from a SF FTP site that explains the process, in addition to adding grain and stuff to make it more 'film like'. Here's the basics (I think these are based on Vegas 3 menus/options): The settings and steps to create clean 24p output from video are: File > (Project) Properties > Video > Advanced > Deinterlace Method: Interpolate fields Event Properties > Resample: On File > Render As Save as Type: Video for Windows (.avi) Template: “Default template (uncompressed)” (this gives you the highest quality image, advisable since we’ll eventually recompress back to DV) Custom > Video > Frame rate: 23.976 fps (this is the standard film frame rate used when working with NTSC video). Custom > Video > Field Order: None (progressive scan) If you plan on doing this more than once, save a template called “24p uncompressed.” Render. This process removes the 60% of the video fields, and creates a 24p clip by interpolating the remaining fields, effectively reversing the 3:2 pulldown process. Start a new Vegas project, using the NTSC DV template. Add the 24p uncompressed clip that you just rendered to the timeline. If it has black bars on the top and bottom, you might need to set the pixel aspect ratio in the clips media properties to “0.9091 (NTSC DV)”. Save the profile and future clips with the same properties with be auto-interpreted with this pixel aspect ratio. Render an AVI file using the standard NTSC DV template. Vegas will automatically apply 3:2 pulldown to the 24p progressive source file, resulting in a 30i NTSC DV clip.

April 25th, 2003, 05:55 PM	#6
Alex Knappenberger High School Student Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Canton, Ohio, USA Posts: 609	Bruce, Josh's method seems to work better, since your outputting to 24P with the DV codec, then you bring that 24FPS avi back into Vegas, and render it back to standard 29.97FPS...it looks good as well. Using uncompressed AVI, will require lots of hard drive space.

April 25th, 2003, 07:42 PM	#7
Bruce A. Christenson Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Forest Grove, OR Posts: 122	Where are the Vegas 4 instructions on 24P conversion? I wanna play! Thanks

April 26th, 2003, 07:32 PM	#9
Bruce A. Christenson Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Forest Grove, OR Posts: 122	Do you mean blockiness in terms of stuttery movement, or compression-style blocks reducing resolution? I know if you don't select 'resample' in the clip properties in Vegas 3, after applying things like time compression/expansion, it won't render quite right, even to uncompressed AVI. I'll have to mess with Vegas 4 soon.

April 26th, 2003, 11:58 PM	#11
Bruce A. Christenson Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Forest Grove, OR Posts: 122	The vegas 4 instructions are in the help menu, under 24P. I think that's the way to go !

April 27th, 2003, 11:56 PM	#13
Bruce A. Christenson Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Forest Grove, OR Posts: 122	I shot a few minutes of my dog running around and then made a 1 minute movie out of it in Vegas 4. I followed the 24P instructions in the help menu, and made a 24P AVI. I also made a "regular" MPEG-2. I then made a "24P" MPEG-2 from the 24P AVI by putting the AVI into a new Vegas project and rendering that to MPEG-2. There is a 24P MPEG-2 template, but whenever I used that, the result always looked really jerky and incorrect. So I always used the regular NTSC MPEG-2 template. I burned both files to a DVD+RW with DVD Architect, and watched them both. I selected PCM for the audio, instead of AC-3, but it still said it was going to compress my audio. What is up with that? The regular MPEG-2 looks like regular video. The 24P MPEG-2 looks ok. I might need to experiment with the deinterlace method, I used the one for more motion. My wife said it looks like something from the 70's, or a documentary or something. I guess that means its got the goods!

April 30th, 2003, 04:11 PM	#14
Bob Benkosky Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Lake Park, Florida Posts: 202	Let's see someone's footage of Vegas's 24p output. Now, this obviously can be done to any footage, but what about FRAME MOVIE mode with the GL2. Are there benefits to using FMM if we can just shoot at 60, then move down to 24p or even 29.97. __________________ http://www.veoh.com/channels/filmmaker My clips and films.

April 30th, 2003, 06:46 PM	#15
Bruce A. Christenson Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Forest Grove, OR Posts: 122	My problem is that if I make ~10 MB WMV clips from 60i and 24p AVI source, it won't look all that different on the computer. The big difference is when I go watch a DVD of the two clips on my TV. I want to try comparing 30p also, if possible to see if that makes it look a little better, but still have that film motion quality.