Export 1080/24P with pulldown as 60i to tape in Vegas? at DVinfo.net

John McManimie · January 29th, 2007, 08:29 PM

Please forgive me if this has already been posted somewhere; I didn't see it.

In Vegas, is there any way to add 2:3:3:2 pulldown to 1080/24P (or some other method to create 1080 PsF) and write it back to tape as 1080/60i?

David Jimerson · January 30th, 2007, 08:54 AM

Writing to which camera?

John McManimie · January 30th, 2007, 02:03 PM

I’ll rephrase the question: Can Vegas convert a 1080/24P CFHD file to a 1080/60i m2t file that preserves all of the 24P frames within 60i, so that it can then be written to tape as 60i on a camcorder that records at 60i?

I would like to use the tape as an archive that can be ingested as 60i footage from the tape and then converted back to 24P after using the proper pulldown removal (or by whatever method is needed) such as how CineForm HDLink removes 3-2 pulldown from Sony CineFrame 24 to create a 24P CFHD file.

Maybe this can be accomplished with other tools (and maybe not) but can it be done with Vegas?

The camera is a Sony HDR-HC1, though I don’t think that it matters… and I could very well be wrong. :-)

I did find a setting in Vegas for 2-3 pulldown with HDV MPEG-2 files (but no 2-3-3-2 pulldown option):

Render As… ->
Save as type: MainConcept MPEG-2 (*.mpg)
Template: HDV 1080-60i (Custom -> Video -> Frame rate: 23.976 + 2-3 pulldown)

David Jimerson · January 30th, 2007, 02:12 PM

No, I don't think so.

What you're seeing in that option is what's used to make 24p DVDs -- the "+ 2:3 pulldown" is actually the insertion of pulldown FLAGS used by a DVD player in order to insert pulldown when playing a 24p DVD on a standard NTSC TV. No actual fields are added, only information as to where to add them, so I don't think this will work for you.

I don't think you're going to able to do this. You should be able to record to tape as 60i and preserve the 24p aesthetic, and you might be able to remove pulldown MANUALLY later, but I don't think you're going to able to go to tape at 60i and preserve pulldown info for automatic removal.

BUT, there's a chance I'm wrong about this, considering Vegas's new support for the V1U's 24p, which uses 2:3 pulldown in a 60i stream. I haven't worked with any of that footage, so I'm not 100% sure. I tend to doubt it.

But even if it does work, I'd bet you'd only be able to use 2:3 pulldown and not 2:3:3:2.

John McManimie · January 30th, 2007, 02:23 PM

It appears that DVFilm might be able to do it:

"It also can convert 24P Quicktime back to NTSC with a non-recompressed 2:3:3:2 pulldown, for archive to tape, and can then re-convert that tape back to 24P, without recompression-- a feature which is missing from many editing programs that support the DVX100 and XL-2."

I just don't know if this applies to HDV/CFHD footage as well.

David Jimerson · January 30th, 2007, 05:06 PM

Well, if you want to go outside Vegas (and with DV Film products), Raylight might have a function or two you'll be interested in:

http://www.dvfilm.com/raylight/raylightTutorial7.htm

John McManimie · January 30th, 2007, 08:01 PM

I recently switched to Vegas and I have been quickly trying to stop using other applications as much as possible when I can accomplish the same task in Vegas. It has really streamlined things for me. It already uses CineForm’s codec (which is excellent), the deinterlacing and frame rate conversion functions are superb, and editing overall is very quick. I would dump Premiere Pro (v1.5, I do not have v2) completely if I didn't have some plugins that are specific to it (actually many of them work in After Effects --- v6.5, I did not go to v7).

I would prefer to stick with the CFHD intermediate for editing and back up the final 24P video as a 60i m2t to tape as a cheap archive (I realize that many people have chosen to render CFHD archives to hard drives and stick them on the shelf).

I may see if AVISynth can do it or I’ll keep digging and figure something out. :-)

Who knows? Maybe a future version of Vegas or CineForm HDLink will add the option to output 24P HDV with pulldown for archiving to tape as 60i.

Thanks very much for your feedback, by the way.

Douglas Spotted Eagle · January 30th, 2007, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John McManimie

I
Who knows? Maybe a future version of Vegas or CineForm HDLink will add the option to output 24P with pulldown for archiving to tape as 60i.
.

Vegas already does offer this. I'm not sure what you're looking for? You can remove, insert, pulldown in Vegas already.
File/Render As/24p w/2:3:3:2...or just 2:3.

John McManimie · January 30th, 2007, 08:16 PM

Forgive my ignorance as I am new to this application, but aren't those presets limited to DV (720x480)? I do not see the option for 1440x1080 video (as MPEG-2 or HDV intermediate) with pulldown.

Douglas Spotted Eagle · January 30th, 2007, 08:40 PM

Look at the BluPrint 24p options and you should see the pulldown options. I'm not on a machine that has Vegas installed, so I'm going entirely by memory here (this means I might be remembering something that doesn't exist). I'm pretty sure that you'll find a pulldown insert option.

Marcus van Bavel · January 30th, 2007, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John McManimie

It appears that DVFilm might be able to do it:

"It also can convert 24P Quicktime back to NTSC with a non-recompressed 2:3:3:2 pulldown, for archive to tape, and can then re-convert that tape back to 24P, without recompression-- a feature which is missing from many editing programs that support the DVX100 and XL-2."

I just don't know if this applies to HDV/CFHD footage as well.

Yes, Maker will add either 3:2 or 2:3:3:2 pulldown to HD and uses the correct field dominance (upper field first). You would then have to encode to HDV using Vegas for recording back to tape.

Marcus van Bavel · January 30th, 2007, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John McManimie

I recently switched to Vegas and I have been quickly trying to stop using other applications...

By the way the 60i to 24P conversion in Maker is MUCH better than Vegas or CineForm. Here is a comparison page from our website:

http://dvfilm.com/maker/MakerVegas.htm

John McManimie · January 31st, 2007, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

Look at the BluPrint 24p options and you should see the pulldown options. I'm not on a machine that has Vegas installed, so I'm going entirely by memory here (this means I might be remembering something that doesn't exist). I'm pretty sure that you'll find a pulldown insert option.

Thanks, I'll check that out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus van Bavel

By the way the 60i to 24P conversion in Maker is MUCH better than Vegas or CineForm. Here is a comparison page from our website:

Yes, I have no doubt that DVFilm Maker produces excellent 24P conversions. I think that Vegas does an excellent job "for an NLE". I will have to check out the latest version of DVFilm Maker now that I know it can produce pulldown for archiving in addition to the other features it offers.

David Jimerson · January 31st, 2007, 11:26 AM

I don't see any pulldown options under Blu-Print, only straight 23.976 or the legacy "+ 2:3 Pulldown" for DVD. I don't have a Sony HDV camera on hand to test it with, but my bet is that you can't print to tape with pulldown info intact -- meaning, you won't be able to remove pulldown automatically later. It's probably the same as taking 24p DV and printing to tape as NTSC (no pulldown) -- it still retains all of its 24p aesthetic, but no pulldown info is recorded.

But if someone has success doing so, I'd sure be interested in hearing about it. I may grab the shop FX1 and give it a whirl sometime later this week.

John McManimie · January 31st, 2007, 09:09 PM

Well, I did find this on CineForm's page on CineFrame (http://www.cineform.com/products/Tec.../CineFrame.htm):

"Once you have completed your 24p production, some may wish to archive back to HDV tape. The CineForm M2T export with Aspect HD and Prospect HD will support 24p encoding into a 60i stream, by simply adding the 3:2 pulldown back. "

So it does, in fact, appear that this functionality already exists in their products. I guess I should pay better attention! :-)

(I do still wish it was available directly from Vegas, though).

January 29th, 2007, 08:29 PM	#1
John McManimie Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 314	Export 1080/24P with pulldown as 60i to tape in Vegas? Please forgive me if this has already been posted somewhere; I didn't see it. In Vegas, is there any way to add 2:3:3:2 pulldown to 1080/24P (or some other method to create 1080 PsF) and write it back to tape as 1080/60i?

January 30th, 2007, 08:54 AM	#2
David Jimerson Jubal 28 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 872	Writing to which camera? __________________ www.wrightsvillebeachstudios.com

January 30th, 2007, 02:12 PM	#4
David Jimerson Jubal 28 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 872	No, I don't think so. What you're seeing in that option is what's used to make 24p DVDs -- the "+ 2:3 pulldown" is actually the insertion of pulldown FLAGS used by a DVD player in order to insert pulldown when playing a 24p DVD on a standard NTSC TV. No actual fields are added, only information as to where to add them, so I don't think this will work for you. I don't think you're going to able to do this. You should be able to record to tape as 60i and preserve the 24p aesthetic, and you might be able to remove pulldown MANUALLY later, but I don't think you're going to able to go to tape at 60i and preserve pulldown info for automatic removal. BUT, there's a chance I'm wrong about this, considering Vegas's new support for the V1U's 24p, which uses 2:3 pulldown in a 60i stream. I haven't worked with any of that footage, so I'm not 100% sure. I tend to doubt it. But even if it does work, I'd bet you'd only be able to use 2:3 pulldown and not 2:3:3:2. __________________ www.wrightsvillebeachstudios.com

January 30th, 2007, 05:06 PM	#6
David Jimerson Jubal 28 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 872	Well, if you want to go outside Vegas (and with DV Film products), Raylight might have a function or two you'll be interested in: http://www.dvfilm.com/raylight/raylightTutorial7.htm __________________ www.wrightsvillebeachstudios.com

January 30th, 2007, 08:40 PM	#10
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	Look at the BluPrint 24p options and you should see the pulldown options. I'm not on a machine that has Vegas installed, so I'm going entirely by memory here (this means I might be remembering something that doesn't exist). I'm pretty sure that you'll find a pulldown insert option. __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

January 30th, 2007, 02:03 PM	#3
John McManimie Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 314	I’ll rephrase the question: Can Vegas convert a 1080/24P CFHD file to a 1080/60i m2t file that preserves all of the 24P frames within 60i, so that it can then be written to tape as 60i on a camcorder that records at 60i? I would like to use the tape as an archive that can be ingested as 60i footage from the tape and then converted back to 24P after using the proper pulldown removal (or by whatever method is needed) such as how CineForm HDLink removes 3-2 pulldown from Sony CineFrame 24 to create a 24P CFHD file. Maybe this can be accomplished with other tools (and maybe not) but can it be done with Vegas? The camera is a Sony HDR-HC1, though I don’t think that it matters… and I could very well be wrong. :-) I did find a setting in Vegas for 2-3 pulldown with HDV MPEG-2 files (but no 2-3-3-2 pulldown option): Render As… -> Save as type: MainConcept MPEG-2 (*.mpg) Template: HDV 1080-60i (Custom -> Video -> Frame rate: 23.976 + 2-3 pulldown)

January 30th, 2007, 02:23 PM	#5
John McManimie Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 314	It appears that DVFilm might be able to do it: "It also can convert 24P Quicktime back to NTSC with a non-recompressed 2:3:3:2 pulldown, for archive to tape, and can then re-convert that tape back to 24P, without recompression-- a feature which is missing from many editing programs that support the DVX100 and XL-2." I just don't know if this applies to HDV/CFHD footage as well.

January 30th, 2007, 08:01 PM	#7
John McManimie Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 314	I recently switched to Vegas and I have been quickly trying to stop using other applications as much as possible when I can accomplish the same task in Vegas. It has really streamlined things for me. It already uses CineForm’s codec (which is excellent), the deinterlacing and frame rate conversion functions are superb, and editing overall is very quick. I would dump Premiere Pro (v1.5, I do not have v2) completely if I didn't have some plugins that are specific to it (actually many of them work in After Effects --- v6.5, I did not go to v7). I would prefer to stick with the CFHD intermediate for editing and back up the final 24P video as a 60i m2t to tape as a cheap archive (I realize that many people have chosen to render CFHD archives to hard drives and stick them on the shelf). I may see if AVISynth can do it or I’ll keep digging and figure something out. :-) Who knows? Maybe a future version of Vegas or CineForm HDLink will add the option to output 24P HDV with pulldown for archiving to tape as 60i. Thanks very much for your feedback, by the way.

January 30th, 2007, 08:16 PM	#9
John McManimie Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 314	Forgive my ignorance as I am new to this application, but aren't those presets limited to DV (720x480)? I do not see the option for 1440x1080 video (as MPEG-2 or HDV intermediate) with pulldown.

January 31st, 2007, 11:26 AM	#14
David Jimerson Jubal 28 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 872	I don't see any pulldown options under Blu-Print, only straight 23.976 or the legacy "+ 2:3 Pulldown" for DVD. I don't have a Sony HDV camera on hand to test it with, but my bet is that you can't print to tape with pulldown info intact -- meaning, you won't be able to remove pulldown automatically later. It's probably the same as taking 24p DV and printing to tape as NTSC (no pulldown) -- it still retains all of its 24p aesthetic, but no pulldown info is recorded. But if someone has success doing so, I'd sure be interested in hearing about it. I may grab the shop FX1 and give it a whirl sometime later this week. __________________ www.wrightsvillebeachstudios.com

January 31st, 2007, 09:09 PM	#15
John McManimie Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 314	Well, I did find this on CineForm's page on CineFrame (http://www.cineform.com/products/Tec.../CineFrame.htm): "Once you have completed your 24p production, some may wish to archive back to HDV tape. The CineForm M2T export with Aspect HD and Prospect HD will support 24p encoding into a 60i stream, by simply adding the 3:2 pulldown back. " So it does, in fact, appear that this functionality already exists in their products. I guess I should pay better attention! :-) (I do still wish it was available directly from Vegas, though).