25fps film look/motion at DVinfo.net

Plamen Petrov · December 11th, 2006, 05:58 AM

Please anybody who uses pal 25 fps for any ideas to get film look and film motion with Vegas!

Douglas Spotted Eagle · December 11th, 2006, 11:59 PM

I don't understand your question. You've got 25p but feel you can see a difference between the 25p and 24p for film cadence? or you're looking for a film-like gamma?

Plamen Petrov · December 12th, 2006, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

I don't understand your question. You've got 25p but feel you can see a difference between the 25p and 24p for film cadence? or you're looking for a film-like gamma?

Douglas, would you explain about film-like gamma? What is that actually?
The prime target of mine is to get real filmic motion from PAL 25fps interlaced. I got some "formulas" of film look, but now I am really confused about how to "destroy" the smoothest motion of any DV (miniDV) cam. I know that Vegas is briliant about getting 24p film motion from 30fps, but how to get same result from 25fps interlaced to 25p with real film motion? I realize that the "magic" is in the specific motion blur also. Please for any ideas and examples!

Richard Firnges · December 13th, 2006, 05:31 AM

Hello Plamen,

I am just doing a 25 p (HDV) project. Most important for the filmic look is deinterlacing from 50i to 25p. That makes a great difference. In my project about steam locomotives there are a lot of spoked wheels - on 50i the motion of the wheels is smooth, on 25 p You sometimes see the spokes standing still or move even backwards (like the wheels of stagecoaches in old westerns) .Next thing I did was using Magic Bullet Film Looks. There I used the setting "Epic" to get a mimic Technicolor - look. So far It looks quite good.

Greeting Richard

Sean Seah · December 14th, 2006, 10:04 AM

Hi Richard, when u say deinterlacing, do you mean setting the properties of the render format (eg mpeg2 DVDarch- BEST) to deinterlace? I do not have meddle with the veg file properties right? Could u post the detailed method to deinterlace?

I saw some really cool videos taken from the HVX recently m I'm also trying to experiment with the FX1e PAL footages.

Glenn Chan · December 14th, 2006, 03:04 PM

Mike Crash's de-interlacer is freeware/donationware and works in Vegas.

Usage information:
http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=52097

Note that for shutter speeds other than 1/60 or 1/50, interpolate may be better than blend fields.

2- Other de-interlacers may do a better job. However, you'd have to look up their instructions.

Richard Firnges · December 15th, 2006, 07:08 AM

Hello Jean,

i use the Mike Crash deinterlacer. Mostly I go to 50 p. If I need 25p I use Vdub to remove ervery second frame on the finished project. So I keep all options as long as possible, but it consumes more space and time. I do the video stuff only as a hobby - so there are usually no deadlines to keep...
If I want the 25p look I do it directly.

Greetins Richard

Plamen Petrov · December 15th, 2006, 08:00 PM

So, I have tried almost everything what all of you said and discussed here. But I am still not satisfied by the results I get. Whatever kind of deinterlace I use, the resulted video still keeps strobes, even if there is low camera motion. I see that any movie or music video is made with specific motion blur which eliminates strobed vision. I think that is the general magic of film motion I am looking for. But probably it is impossible to get it by software or plug-in. If somebody knows a way to get such a motion blur, please share expierence and examples here. Meanwhile, I shot with miniDV cam JVC GR-DVL520A. In that matter, let's everybody who uses miniDV to response here.

Glenn Chan · December 15th, 2006, 08:05 PM

Did you shoot with a 1/50 second shutter, or some other shutter speed?

Douglas Spotted Eagle · December 15th, 2006, 08:32 PM

Knowing a little about the GR-DVL520A, you don't have the ability to set shutter speed, and that being the case, you'll find it almost impossible to get a good 24p cadence. You need to shoot at 1/50th as Glenn hints, for best results, just as in NTSC land, we need to shoot at 1/60th if we don't have a 24p cam, for best results.

Plamen Petrov · December 16th, 2006, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

Knowing a little about the GR-DVL520A, you don't have the ability to set shutter speed, and that being the case, you'll find it almost impossible to get a good 24p cadence. You need to shoot at 1/50th as Glenn hints, for best results, just as in NTSC land, we need to shoot at 1/60th if we don't have a 24p cam, for best results.

Actually I shoot EXACTLY at 1/50th. So???
Also, as I mentioned in my previous thread, I dont need to get 24p in any case, I would be glad to get 25p too. But the problem is that I cant get the specific film motion blur, understand now? Ok, I am giving you an example: have you ever seen a video taken with digital photo camera or with mobile phone camera? Yes, the quality is very low, but the motion blur is almost what I want to get in Vegas. You see that if there is not such a motion blur in a phone camera or in digital photo camera, the motion will be so strobed. So, do you really understand what I am looking for?

Peter Jefferson · December 16th, 2006, 06:32 AM

u can always reset the playback rate in the files properties if u wanted that stuttery look.. i wouldnt recomend it unless its specifically for a particular EFFECT your after.. NOT a "film" look..

Plamen Petrov · December 16th, 2006, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Jefferson

u can always reset the playback rate in the files properties if u wanted that stuttery look.. i wouldnt recomend it unless its specifically for a particular EFFECT your after.. NOT a "film" look..

No, Peter, I dont mean playback rate! I mean the MOTION BLUR in that case. If I change the playback rate in Vegas, then the strobing is terribly bad, i.e. no any motion blur as I want it. That is not the "healing" of what I need!

Douglas Spotted Eagle · December 16th, 2006, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plamen Petrov

Actually I shoot EXACTLY at 1/50th. So???
Also, as I mentioned in my previous thread, I dont need to get 24p in any case, I would be glad to get 25p too. But the problem is that I cant get the specific film motion blur, understand now? Ok, I am giving you an example: have you ever seen a video taken with digital photo camera or with mobile phone camera? Yes, the quality is very low, but the motion blur is almost what I want to get in Vegas. You see that if there is not such a motion blur in a phone camera or in digital photo camera, the motion will be so strobed. So, do you really understand what I am looking for?

I understand your frustrated, Plamen, but bring it down a notch, OK...it's not doing any good, and doesn't inspire others to help you.
If you want a motion blur to be created that looks *exactly* like film, shoot film. Simple. If you want a motion blur that is similar to film, then Vegas and other tools do a reasonable job of giving it to you. However, the blur will be dependent on your skills as a shooter. If you don't move the camera in the same manner as a film cam, it won't look like film either. For many people, close is good enough. For me, it's not. If I want that blur, I'll shoot XDCAMHD at 24p, and now the V1U at 24p. Even then, it's not *exactly* like film. The only thing that will give you the *exact* look of film blur, is film with the frame rate and gate angle set to your pref.

December 11th, 2006, 05:58 AM	#1
Plamen Petrov Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Sofia Bulgaria Posts: 147	25fps film look/motion Please anybody who uses pal 25 fps for any ideas to get film look and film motion with Vegas!

December 11th, 2006, 11:59 PM	#2
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	I don't understand your question. You've got 25p but feel you can see a difference between the 25p and 24p for film cadence? or you're looking for a film-like gamma? __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

December 15th, 2006, 08:32 PM	#10
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	Knowing a little about the GR-DVL520A, you don't have the ability to set shutter speed, and that being the case, you'll find it almost impossible to get a good 24p cadence. You need to shoot at 1/50th as Glenn hints, for best results, just as in NTSC land, we need to shoot at 1/60th if we don't have a 24p cam, for best results. __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

December 13th, 2006, 05:31 AM	#4
Richard Firnges Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 45	Hello Plamen, I am just doing a 25 p (HDV) project. Most important for the filmic look is deinterlacing from 50i to 25p. That makes a great difference. In my project about steam locomotives there are a lot of spoked wheels - on 50i the motion of the wheels is smooth, on 25 p You sometimes see the spokes standing still or move even backwards (like the wheels of stagecoaches in old westerns) .Next thing I did was using Magic Bullet Film Looks. There I used the setting "Epic" to get a mimic Technicolor - look. So far It looks quite good. Greeting Richard

December 14th, 2006, 10:04 AM	#5
Sean Seah Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,498	Hi Richard, when u say deinterlacing, do you mean setting the properties of the render format (eg mpeg2 DVDarch- BEST) to deinterlace? I do not have meddle with the veg file properties right? Could u post the detailed method to deinterlace? I saw some really cool videos taken from the HVX recently m I'm also trying to experiment with the FX1e PAL footages.

December 14th, 2006, 03:04 PM	#6
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	Mike Crash's de-interlacer is freeware/donationware and works in Vegas. Usage information: http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=52097 Note that for shutter speeds other than 1/60 or 1/50, interpolate may be better than blend fields. 2- Other de-interlacers may do a better job. However, you'd have to look up their instructions.

December 15th, 2006, 07:08 AM	#7
Richard Firnges Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 45	Hello Jean, i use the Mike Crash deinterlacer. Mostly I go to 50 p. If I need 25p I use Vdub to remove ervery second frame on the finished project. So I keep all options as long as possible, but it consumes more space and time. I do the video stuff only as a hobby - so there are usually no deadlines to keep... If I want the 25p look I do it directly. Greetins Richard

December 15th, 2006, 08:00 PM	#8
Plamen Petrov Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Sofia Bulgaria Posts: 147	So, I have tried almost everything what all of you said and discussed here. But I am still not satisfied by the results I get. Whatever kind of deinterlace I use, the resulted video still keeps strobes, even if there is low camera motion. I see that any movie or music video is made with specific motion blur which eliminates strobed vision. I think that is the general magic of film motion I am looking for. But probably it is impossible to get it by software or plug-in. If somebody knows a way to get such a motion blur, please share expierence and examples here. Meanwhile, I shot with miniDV cam JVC GR-DVL520A. In that matter, let's everybody who uses miniDV to response here.

December 15th, 2006, 08:05 PM	#9
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	Did you shoot with a 1/50 second shutter, or some other shutter speed?

December 16th, 2006, 06:32 AM	#12
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	u can always reset the playback rate in the files properties if u wanted that stuttery look.. i wouldnt recomend it unless its specifically for a particular EFFECT your after.. NOT a "film" look..