My editor says Vegas not for broadcast at DVinfo.net

M. Krishna Babu · September 14th, 2006, 03:38 AM

recently i was hired to shoot a documentary using Panny 102B PAL for a production company which will eventually be telecasted on a National-TV network . After the shoot, i had to dump the tapes into a harddrive and submit that to the company which is then edited by them under my supervision. They gave me an editor who works on avid while i edit my stuff on vegas-6( this is my first production for a TV network, all my work is limited to corporate videos and weddings). when i suggested him to have a look at sonyvegas, first, he never knew sonyvegas existed. second, he instantly turned it down saying " NLE's like PPro & vegas etc are good for semi pro editing stuff like weddings and corporate dvd's, but are not professional. u cant use them for editing stuff that has to be broadcasted. They all look good at the editing desk, but once broadcasted u will know the real difference. thats the reason why avid is used the world over". i used vegas capture to dump the tapes (.avi), now he wants them to be re captured using avid (.omf)...when i tried to convince him that any NLE can be used because the video is all 1's and 0's on the tape and harddisk he was not convinced. Now iam confused. was he true?

thanks
krishna.

Alister Chapman · September 14th, 2006, 05:51 AM

There are differences in the way some NLE's render video that can lead to quality issues, but to say Vegas and Premiere are no good for broadcast is rubbish.

Steven Davis · September 14th, 2006, 07:18 AM

I'm sure that someone smarter than myself can speak to the technical side of your situation,

But let me suggest that the 're-caping' the tapes might be something you need to discuss with your client. I doubt it's something you planned on, and obviously means extra work.

Mike Kujbida · September 14th, 2006, 08:05 AM

I believe that OMF is an Avid-specific format that's actually a quicktime file which is why he'd have to recapture everything to do any editing on his system.
There is a PC version of this codec at http://www.avid.com/onlineSupport/su...contentID=9993 but I've never tried rendering out with it and having an Avid user try it so there's no guarantees that it would work for you.
As far as Vegas not being acceptable for broadcast, I can personally say that's a load of B.S. as I've done it numerous times.

Kent Frost · September 14th, 2006, 08:09 AM

Yeah, total BS. You were right in the "1's and 0's" comment. Television has a specific standard, and Vegas follows those standards. Saying Vegas isn't good for broadcast is like saying Photoshop is an amateur program for photos.

Chris Hurd · September 14th, 2006, 08:25 AM

There's an ABC affiliate in Dallas using Sony Vegas for broadcast... full story here:

http://vegas.digitalmedianet.com/art...e.jsp?id=28885

Greg Boston · September 14th, 2006, 08:28 AM

Was going to mention that fact Chris, but you beat me to it!

-gb-

Chris Hurd · September 14th, 2006, 08:42 AM

Sorry for stealin' your thunder, Greg!

Greg Boston · September 14th, 2006, 08:45 AM

No problem! I remember my first meeting in person with you and DSE for dinner when he was here doing that training in 2004. Paul's Porterhouse...ummmm steak.

-gb-

Douglas Spotted Eagle · September 14th, 2006, 09:02 AM

Krishna,
your manager/editor/whomever says Vegas can't be used for broadcast is ignorant and apparently doesn't want to learn.
AVID, FCP, or whatever his favorite is, cannot take footage from say...A DSR 250 or XDCAMHD camera and make a higher quality output image than Vegas (or Premiere Pro, or anything else that uses digital ingest).
ABC Nightline, MTV, ESPN, FOX, Playboy Television, FOX Sports, CNN, BELO Group, and several other monstrously large broadcasting organizations use Vegas in some capacity or another in their editing bays. I know, because I've trained them.

Richard Alvarez · September 14th, 2006, 09:10 AM

I suspect, he just doesn't want to do the conversion to OMF files, and wants you to hand them to him in that format. His excuse is silly.

That being said, you can either recapture, or put it on him to do the conversion.
(Yes, I edit on Avid)

Seth Bloombaum · September 14th, 2006, 09:11 AM

"...vegas not good for broadcast..."

While I agree with all the posts above, and have been using Vegas exclusively for many years on my in-house projects, I'd suggest that what your editor wants to do is not such a bad idea, and even makes a lot of sense. Vegas is fine for broadcast, but...

You hire an editor - give him or her what they need to do a good job the best way they know how, or find a different editor. Workflow is everything.

In the US (in India?), if you want to fit your work into the larger world of editing facilities, broadcasters, and freelancers, you'll find that most are using Avid and Final Cut Pro. These products are not "better", they're not "better for broadcast", but they have market share and they represent working standards for projects that move between facilities.

Think like a producer, think about why you are at an outside facility for this project, think about the life of the project, and make a choice that is mostly right. Any choice you make will compromise something, so make it the best compromise you can.

Glenn Chan · September 14th, 2006, 10:37 AM

There can be extremely subtle differences in how the systems handle footage... for example, the NLEs differ a little bit in how they handle chroma filtering and interpolation. Encoding and decoding is done by the VTRs and the codecs used by each system. It doesn't make that much of a difference though, except when keying. If you are keying, then you want chroma interpolation (or better) applied... although it that case, quality is highly dependent on your keyer (which you can do outside your NLE).

You can see different codecs at
http://codecs.onerivermedia.com/
i.e. the Avid UC 4:2:2 codec produces different results than Apple's.

The NLEs also differ in their buginess (FCP is sometimes bad in this department when it comes to filters, 10-bit, and superblacks) and in how their scopes work.

All in all though, the quality differences are fairly insignificant.... talent/content and workflow are things I would worry about more.

Werner Wesp · September 15th, 2006, 03:33 AM

Vegas is fine for the quality it delivers. Problem is that AVid id the standard. If compatibility and workflow some editor is used to are important, then you need to choose Avid.

It's a bit like Mac and PC. The one isn't better as the other, just different. But almost everybody uses PC. E.g. if I need to switch to Mac, I would have trouble adapting to the different workflow (trust me - I've tried a few seconds), and my work and results wouldn't benefit from that obviously....

Joe Carney · September 15th, 2006, 10:17 AM

I would say Vegas 7 is an even better choice for broadcast then 5 or 6. Realtime Mpeg2 editing without using an itermediate is great for time sensitve content. (At least it appears that way). I think they actually took they wind out of P2 with this release. IMHO

Also check out Vegas' media management features, which is one of the arguments you get from Avid people to continue using it.

September 14th, 2006, 03:38 AM	#1
M. Krishna Babu New Boot Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hyderabad. India Posts: 20	My editor says Vegas not for broadcast recently i was hired to shoot a documentary using Panny 102B PAL for a production company which will eventually be telecasted on a National-TV network . After the shoot, i had to dump the tapes into a harddrive and submit that to the company which is then edited by them under my supervision. They gave me an editor who works on avid while i edit my stuff on vegas-6( this is my first production for a TV network, all my work is limited to corporate videos and weddings). when i suggested him to have a look at sonyvegas, first, he never knew sonyvegas existed. second, he instantly turned it down saying " NLE's like PPro & vegas etc are good for semi pro editing stuff like weddings and corporate dvd's, but are not professional. u cant use them for editing stuff that has to be broadcasted. They all look good at the editing desk, but once broadcasted u will know the real difference. thats the reason why avid is used the world over". i used vegas capture to dump the tapes (.avi), now he wants them to be re captured using avid (.omf)...when i tried to convince him that any NLE can be used because the video is all 1's and 0's on the tape and harddisk he was not convinced. Now iam confused. was he true? thanks krishna.

September 14th, 2006, 05:51 AM	#2
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	There are differences in the way some NLE's render video that can lead to quality issues, but to say Vegas and Premiere are no good for broadcast is rubbish. __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

September 14th, 2006, 07:18 AM	#3
Steven Davis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 3,065	I'm sure that someone smarter than myself can speak to the technical side of your situation, But let me suggest that the 're-caping' the tapes might be something you need to discuss with your client. I doubt it's something you planned on, and obviously means extra work. __________________ What happens if I push the 'Red' button?

September 14th, 2006, 08:09 AM	#5
Kent Frost Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Springfield, Missouri Posts: 117	Yeah, total BS. You were right in the "1's and 0's" comment. Television has a specific standard, and Vegas follows those standards. Saying Vegas isn't good for broadcast is like saying Photoshop is an amateur program for photos. __________________ "Your world is all these elements; of light and sound, of taste, smell, and touch. Woven together in many dimensions on the fabulous loom of your brain. Your brain; the most complicated thing in the world, which you yourself grew...without even thinking about it."

September 14th, 2006, 08:25 AM	#6
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	There's an ABC affiliate in Dallas using Sony Vegas for broadcast... full story here: http://vegas.digitalmedianet.com/art...e.jsp?id=28885 __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

September 14th, 2006, 08:05 AM	#4
Mike Kujbida Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Windsor, ON Canada Posts: 2,770	I believe that OMF is an Avid-specific format that's actually a quicktime file which is why he'd have to recapture everything to do any editing on his system. There is a PC version of this codec at http://www.avid.com/onlineSupport/su...contentID=9993 but I've never tried rendering out with it and having an Avid user try it so there's no guarantees that it would work for you. As far as Vegas not being acceptable for broadcast, I can personally say that's a load of B.S. as I've done it numerous times.

September 14th, 2006, 08:28 AM	#7
Greg Boston Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: DFW area, TX Posts: 6,117 Images: 1	Was going to mention that fact Chris, but you beat me to it! -gb-

September 14th, 2006, 08:42 AM	#8
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Sorry for stealin' your thunder, Greg! __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

September 14th, 2006, 08:45 AM	#9
Greg Boston Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: DFW area, TX Posts: 6,117 Images: 1	No problem! I remember my first meeting in person with you and DSE for dinner when he was here doing that training in 2004. Paul's Porterhouse...ummmm steak. -gb-

September 14th, 2006, 09:02 AM	#10
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	Krishna, your manager/editor/whomever says Vegas can't be used for broadcast is ignorant and apparently doesn't want to learn. AVID, FCP, or whatever his favorite is, cannot take footage from say...A DSR 250 or XDCAMHD camera and make a higher quality output image than Vegas (or Premiere Pro, or anything else that uses digital ingest). ABC Nightline, MTV, ESPN, FOX, Playboy Television, FOX Sports, CNN, BELO Group, and several other monstrously large broadcasting organizations use Vegas in some capacity or another in their editing bays. I know, because I've trained them. __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

September 14th, 2006, 09:10 AM	#11
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	I suspect, he just doesn't want to do the conversion to OMF files, and wants you to hand them to him in that format. His excuse is silly. That being said, you can either recapture, or put it on him to do the conversion. (Yes, I edit on Avid)

September 14th, 2006, 09:11 AM	#12
Seth Bloombaum Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,420	"...vegas not good for broadcast..." While I agree with all the posts above, and have been using Vegas exclusively for many years on my in-house projects, I'd suggest that what your editor wants to do is not such a bad idea, and even makes a lot of sense. Vegas is fine for broadcast, but... You hire an editor - give him or her what they need to do a good job the best way they know how, or find a different editor. Workflow is everything. In the US (in India?), if you want to fit your work into the larger world of editing facilities, broadcasters, and freelancers, you'll find that most are using Avid and Final Cut Pro. These products are not "better", they're not "better for broadcast", but they have market share and they represent working standards for projects that move between facilities. Think like a producer, think about why you are at an outside facility for this project, think about the life of the project, and make a choice that is mostly right. Any choice you make will compromise something, so make it the best compromise you can.

September 14th, 2006, 10:37 AM	#13
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	There can be extremely subtle differences in how the systems handle footage... for example, the NLEs differ a little bit in how they handle chroma filtering and interpolation. Encoding and decoding is done by the VTRs and the codecs used by each system. It doesn't make that much of a difference though, except when keying. If you are keying, then you want chroma interpolation (or better) applied... although it that case, quality is highly dependent on your keyer (which you can do outside your NLE). You can see different codecs at http://codecs.onerivermedia.com/ i.e. the Avid UC 4:2:2 codec produces different results than Apple's. The NLEs also differ in their buginess (FCP is sometimes bad in this department when it comes to filters, 10-bit, and superblacks) and in how their scopes work. All in all though, the quality differences are fairly insignificant.... talent/content and workflow are things I would worry about more.

September 15th, 2006, 03:33 AM	#14
Werner Wesp Major Player Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 497	Vegas is fine for the quality it delivers. Problem is that AVid id the standard. If compatibility and workflow some editor is used to are important, then you need to choose Avid. It's a bit like Mac and PC. The one isn't better as the other, just different. But almost everybody uses PC. E.g. if I need to switch to Mac, I would have trouble adapting to the different workflow (trust me - I've tried a few seconds), and my work and results wouldn't benefit from that obviously....

September 15th, 2006, 10:17 AM	#15
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	I would say Vegas 7 is an even better choice for broadcast then 5 or 6. Realtime Mpeg2 editing without using an itermediate is great for time sensitve content. (At least it appears that way). I think they actually took they wind out of P2 with this release. IMHO Also check out Vegas' media management features, which is one of the arguments you get from Avid people to continue using it. __________________ Boycott Guinness, bring back the pint!!!