Frustrated with HD output quality

[Paul Kepen]

Thanks Fred for clearifying. That is very interresting that you had less artifacting by downconverting in your FX-1 before editing. I found that when I was redering output from Vegas, I had the MainConcept HDV coder selected. Last night I used the "DVD Architect widescreen" template and the results were excellent. I still have some of the wavy artifacts, but not any worse then with regular DV, and the sharpness, color gaument, shadow-highlights, are all much better then in a DVD from SD DV. I have Adobe PPro as well, and my results had been equally poor in both Vegas and PPro. I double checked, and I don't see the same/similar error in my Adobe setup, so I'll have to investigate that further. At least I'm up n running with Vegas and HDV :)

[Chris Barcellos]

Originally Posted by Paul Kepen

Thanks chris. I'm curious, you use movie studio, but you have DVD architect? Why do you use studio and not Vegas 6? Yes I have been using the cineform codec. I also tried capturing hdv dirctly into vegas6 and that seemed to work the same, same quality, etc. I don't believe though, that even that is editing the M2t, as I think the Vegas hdv capture uses a stripped down version of the cineform codec. I would suspect movie studio does as well, I'm not sure.

I'll make sure I have mine set on wide screen too.

Actually, with respect to Vegas Movies Studio, I bought the Platinum version which allow native hdv editing, and had DVD Architect and the stripped down Acid sound program. I have always been a Premiere user, but with all the Vegas hype, I wanted to get a feel for it. I don't believe the Cineform HD codec is used at all when you edit natively in Vegas, whether with this Movie Studio product, or the standard Vegas. My understanding is that you have to use Cineform stand alone HD Connect to actually have access to the the Cineform process. You would know for sure though, if you your HD captured files are .avi files, then you are using one of the intermediate codecs from Cineform.

[Fred Foronda]

Originally Posted by Paul Kepen

Thanks Fred for clearifying. That is very interresting that you had less artifacting by downconverting in your FX-1 before editing. :)

I had zero artifacts when downconverted from the camera when I had Vegas 4.
The main thing at this point is I am outputing it to HDV tape then later to Blu Ray. Those artifacts and wavy lines are probaby happening in the step when we convert the m2t to a CF codec. We're probably doing something wrong and no one had corrected us so far.

[Paul Kepen]

Originally Posted by Fred Foronda

I had zero artifacts when downconverted from the camera when I had Vegas 4.
The main thing at this point is I am outputing it to HDV tape then later to Blu Ray. Those artifacts and wavy lines are probaby happening in the step when we convert the m2t to a CF codec. We're probably doing something wrong and no one had corrected us so far.

Chris that is interesting. Do you find the native hdv editing is hard/poor performing vs DV or cineform?

Fred, I am just trying to output to DVD, but if you are getting those effects when outputing to HDV tape - that is really obnoxious. If we are ALL dooing something wrong, then I think cineform needs to come out with a "GUIDE" with step by step instructions and cautions on the pitfalls/errors that are common. I too am looking foreward to being able to output to BlueRay - hopefully soon!

[Fred Foronda]

Originally Posted by Paul Kepen

Fred, I am just trying to output to DVD, but if you are getting those effects when outputing to HDV tape - that is really obnoxious.

No, I am getting flawless resuts going back to HDV tape..very identical with the original footage with all the bells and whistles. Its going to DVD is where the problem is.

[Paul Kepen]

Originally Posted by Fred Foronda

No, I am getting flawless resuts going back to HDV tape..very identical with the original footage with all the bells and whistles. Its going to DVD is where the problem is.

Glad to hear that Fred. All we need are those Blue Ray burners! I think cause were comeing from the interlaced versus the 24p film of the commercial DVD's, you have to expect some of these artifacts. I took some 60i sd DV footage and converted it to 24p. The result was a DVD that was very clean and few artifacts, but the motion was too jerky/strobscopic.

[Chris Barcellos]

Originally Posted by Paul Kepen

Chris that is interesting. Do you find the native hdv editing is hard/poor performing vs DV or cineform?

First of all, I have a fairly generic system I cobbled together from sales at Frys. The system is a 3800+ AMD Dual Core, 2 Gigs of memory, and a fairly generic PCI Express Video Card with 256 mgs of memory. Despite the generic nature of the system I put together, when I edit in Premeire 2.0, with HDV native, I don't find I am having any significant problems.

I am told by Doug Spotted Eagle, and other experts on the board that using Cineform will give you better editing capability and better color handling. I think I have seen occasional evidence where the color had a bit of a temporary tinge at the wrong place, but I have been generally well satisfied with the results.

A Cineform file would be 5 times the size for same footage, so if you go that route, you have to plan for a lot more disk space. Add the fact that Cineform's Aspect for Premiere runs about $500.00, or $200.00 for HD Connect for Vegas, and I just haven't gotten into it.

So far, except for a couple of tests with Vegas in HDV native editing, I have not really tested Vegas that way. I never have been quite confortable with the Vegas user interface, so I just haven't pushed it there.

[Paul Kepen]

Chris, your system and mine are almost identical. That's amazing that you don't seem to need the Cineform. Is the native hdv performance about the same in PPro2 vs Vegas? I agree that Ppro is a more intuative interface, and the help file is far superior. DSE's DVD tutitorials for Vegas are nice, but I'd like to have the explanation right there in print where I can follow it. Going to DVD Vegas seems to allow me to set the bit rate higher then Ppro 1.5 and at least for now, it is givng me good HDV to DVD. I still can't seem to get very good results with Ppro=way too much artifacting. remeber I am using the CF intermediate with both. Ppro 1.5 does not support native hdv editng. One thing I wish Ppro would do, is allow full screen preview on monitor #2. You have to go thru the firewire-camcorder-monitor, at least in ppro 1.5. Is that the same in 2.0? Vegas makes it easy to do that.
We'll its late, goodnight - PK

[Mark Bryant]

Paul, Chris, and Fred:

A few points about the Cineform Codec in Vegas/Vegas Movie Studio Platinum:

1. A Cineform Codec is included with Vegas 6 (and VMS Platimum 6). You don't need to buy Connect HD. (The advantage in using Connect HD is you can capture directly to Cineform in one step).

2. If you are capturing and editing the native HDV, then the CineForm codec is not involved.

3. To use the Cineform Codec provided with Vegas, you first capture the HDV, then in a separate step render a Cineform intermediate file, and edit that.

4. If the edited footage is flawless when you render HDV back to m2t/print to tape, and you only see problems when rendering down to SD DVD, then I don't think the problem can be with your Cineform settings.

5. Using the Vegas Cineform codec, I find they are generally about 3 times the size of the original m2t (not 5).

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

I think I have seen occasional evidence where the color had a bit of a temporary tinge at the wrong place, but I have been generally well satisfied with the results.

This is true with older versions of the CineForm codec, but is not at issue any longer


A Cineform file would be 5 times the size for same footage, so if you go that route, you have to plan for a lot more disk space. Add the fact that Cineform's Aspect for Premiere runs about $500.00, or $200.00 for HD Connect for Vegas, and I just haven't gotten into it.

CineForm CODEC comes with Vegas 6. You don't need the Connect HD, although there are some additional benefits if you own it. Additionally, file sizes grow from approx 13GBph to 40GBph, not 5 times.

So far, except for a couple of tests with Vegas in HDV native editing, I have not really tested Vegas that way. I never have been quite confortable with the Vegas user interface, so I just haven't pushed it there.

[b]No offense meant, but I think you need to do a project in HDV with Vegas (or premiere), not just tests, in order to be offering advice or commentary, because you've got a number of points "not quite right."

[Chris Barcellos]

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

[b]No offense meant, but I think you need to do a project in HDV with Vegas (or premiere), not just tests, in order to be offering advice or commentary, because you've got a number of points "not quite right."

DSE:

1. If you look at my post, and follow the thread, you will discern that I am responding to another post asking about editing native HDV and I was referring to the Native HDV editing and some color problems associated with it as reported by you and others. I was not criticizing Cineforms product. I was merely reporting that in editing in HDV native, I had noticed and occasional color problem- exactly what you and others have indicated, and I was only confirming that.

2. I am confused about Cinefrom as an available codec in Vegas 6. Are you saying I should have it with VMS Platinum too, as reported by Mark Bryant above ?

3. As far as doing projects in HDV, I clearly stated that I had only done tests in Vegas Movie Studio. That doesn't mean I haven't done projects using native HDV editing in Premiere Pro.

4. File size: I will stand corrected on the multiplier. It has been some time since I used the trial version, but the point is that it does use significantly more space and I was pointing out that that should be planned for. Again, I am not slamming the product. I was only pointing out what needed to be done.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Movie Studio also has the CineForm codec installed with the product.
You keep saying "significantly more space." It's approx 3 times the space.
It's HD. Understand that even at 3 times the space, it's insignificant compared to other compression schemes. It's HD. It's big. It's 4 times the resolution for less than 4 times the file size. Do the math. This is where it gets frustrating. You want 4 times the pixels in the same amount of space.
I realize I'm being combative, but just stop for a second and think about what's happening in this discussion. It's been sidetracked, and sidetracked in part because some folks aren't understanding that:
1. HDV is 4 times the pixels of DV.
2. HDV is same raw file size as HDV, but that file format was never intended to be edited. the mere words "Native HDV editing" should be banned from our vocabulary, because it's marketing hype. MPEG is a lousy editing format at small bitrates. HDV *barely* gets into the acceptable bitrate for editing. This is why CineForm, Canopus NX, Apple AIC, and several other DI's exist. Because it's the smart way to work. But some folks want the size of HDV to match the size and experience of editing DV. Ain't gonna happen. No way, no how. It's a LOT more information. Ain't no free lunch.
And on a slower computer, native HDV isn't going to happen anyway. Not in Premiere, Vegas, Canopus, Apple, etc, etc.
Comparing Premiere Pro 2 to VMS is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? You're comparing a 79.99 software to a 499.00 software.

[Chris Barcellos]

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

Movie Studio also has the CineForm codec installed with the product.
You keep saying "significantly more space." It's approx 3 times the space.
It's HD. Understand that even at 3 times the space, it's insignificant compared to other compression schemes. It's HD. It's big. It's 4 times the resolution for less than 4 times the file size. Do the math. This is where it gets frustrating. You want 4 times the pixels in the same amount of space.
I realize I'm being combative, but just stop for a second and think about what's happening in this discussion. It's been sidetracked, and sidetracked in part because some folks aren't understanding that:
1. HDV is 4 times the pixels of DV.
2. HDV is same raw file size as HDV, but that file format was never intended to be edited. the mere words "Native HDV editing" should be banned from our vocabulary, because it's marketing hype. MPEG is a lousy editing format at small bitrates. HDV *barely* gets into the acceptable bitrate for editing. This is why CineForm, Canopus NX, Apple AIC, and several other DI's exist. Because it's the smart way to work. But some folks want the size of HDV to match the size and experience of editing DV. Ain't gonna happen. No way, no how. It's a LOT more information. Ain't no free lunch.
And on a slower computer, native HDV isn't going to happen anyway. Not in Premiere, Vegas, Canopus, Apple, etc, etc.
Comparing Premiere Pro 2 to VMS is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? You're comparing a 79.99 software to a 499.00 software.

This thread started out as a consumer level question about the HC1 and how to get best video to DVD. In the process, others started discussing HDV editing solutions. To us consumer level users, "editing" at a native level may produce the best bang for the buck, and my responses in this thread were based on that. It was an open discussion about various avenues, costs, etc. The size of disc storage needed for that purpose is a valid concern to the hobbiest. Theres a big difference in the cost of a 500 gig drive, and a 160. If its coming out of your salary at Home Depot, it makes a difference.

If you are in the actual business of video production for a living, then you do what you have to to deliver a top product. But this thread was clearly a hobbiest level discussion. Nobody has said that it is better to edit in HDV native. I do edit that way, and I'll be darn, I actually have access to transitions, color correction, slow motion processing, and all the other things associated with editing when I edit HDV native. And with my generic set up, I do so relatively trouble free, at least to the level I need it, and that is what I reported.

I believe DVInfo includes consumer oriented users, and is not limited to professional level users. Am I wrong about that ?

[Chris Barcellos]

Originally Posted by Paul Kepen

Chris, your system and mine are almost identical. That's amazing that you don't seem to need the Cineform. Is the native hdv performance about the same in PPro2 vs Vegas? I agree that Ppro is a more intuative interface, and the help file is far superior. DSE's DVD tutitorials for Vegas are nice, but I'd like to have the explanation right there in print where I can follow it. Going to DVD Vegas seems to allow me to set the bit rate higher then Ppro 1.5 and at least for now, it is givng me good HDV to DVD. I still can't seem to get very good results with Ppro=way too much artifacting. remeber I am using the CF intermediate with both. Ppro 1.5 does not support native hdv editng. One thing I wish Ppro would do, is allow full screen preview on monitor #2. You have to go thru the firewire-camcorder-monitor, at least in ppro 1.5. Is that the same in 2.0? Vegas makes it easy to do that.
We'll its late, goodnight - PK

Paul:

I actually upgraded 1.51 to 2.0 to get the capability. I still have 1.51 on the system to if I want to use Cineform Codec to capture with. As far as being more intuitive, I'm sure others will tell you Vegas is more intuitive. For me, I have used the Premiere interfaces for about 5 years, so I'm used to their look and feel.

[Andreas Griesmayr]

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

......
1. HDV is 4 times the pixels of DV.
2. HDV is same raw file size as HDV, but that file format was never intended to be edited. the mere words "Native HDV editing" should be banned from our vocabulary, because it's marketing hype. MPEG is a lousy editing format at small bitrates. HDV *barely* gets into the acceptable bitrate for editing. This is why CineForm, Canopus NX, Apple AIC, and several other DI's exist. Because it's the smart way to work. But some folks want the size of HDV to match the size and experience of editing DV. Ain't gonna happen. No way, no how. It's a LOT more information. Ain't no free lunch.
And on a slower computer, native HDV isn't going to happen anyway. Not in Premiere, Vegas, Canopus, Apple, etc, etc.

I'd be very happy if someone could explain in short:
What are the main differences between editing DV and HDV with the the help of CineForm in Vegas?