Output Questions

[Torrance Colvin]

Greetings,

I need to output footage from Vegas to a digibeta master. Would it be preferable to render to a DVD through DVD Architect and make a digibeta copy from the dvd, or to render to a mini-dv tape and make a digibeta copy from the tape? Is there a difference between the two in final quality.

Also, I need the digibeta master to recognize the four different audio channels that are on the Vegas edit. Would they recognize them from a dvd transfer? What about from a mini-dv transfer?

Thanks.

Torrance

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

You need to render as 4:2:2 YUV and output via SDI (such as a BMD card) or have a converter that will take the DV signal and output via SDI (such as the excellent Convergent Design boxes).
DON'T attempt to make a digibeta master from a DVD. You'll make the digibeta look terrible, and the producers will blame Vegas, most likely.

[Torrance Colvin]

DSE, neglected to mention that I have Vegas 5 and this was shot on the dvx. Does that change things? How do I do a 4:2:2 render in Vegas 5 (can I)?

It sounds as if my best bet is to just rent a digibeta recorder and render directly from my system or find a place that will not charge me an arm and a leg to tie up their machine while rendering, correct? I was hoping that the degredation from mini-dv to digibeta would not be noticeable.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Yes, that changes things. I assumed (wrongly) that you shot digibeta.
here's the deal....
If you render to DV and then print to digibeta, you're still taking 4:1:1 and converting it to 4:2:2. Nothing is lost in that process.
However, if you are inserting titles, graphics, etc, or have color correction, all of that is done at 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 anyway, so you're compromising THOSE elements of your picture. If you can avoid that, you should. Sounds like you need to rent a DB deck anyway? Can you buy, rent, borrow an SDI card to output via 4:2:2 YUV to the DBdeck?
Or, you can render to 4:2:2 uncompressed, save the render on an external drive, and ship the drive to a service bureau. This is how we currently manage our HD output, we don't own an HDCAM deck.

[Torrance Colvin]

DSE, I think rendering and providing the external drive would probably be the easiest and most cost/time effective for me. And I do have titles and color correction, so the 4:2:2 render is the only option.

So to clarify, if I render 4:2:2 uncompressed, the transfer to digibeta will also preserve my separate audio tracks, right? Finally, how do I render an uncompressed 4:2:2 video? Do I render as an .avi 24p with 2-3 pulldown? Or are there special settings that need to be changed?

Thanks again for all your help.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by Torrance Colvin

DSE, I think rendering and providing the external drive would probably be the easiest and most cost/time effective for me. And I do have titles and color correction, so the 4:2:2 render is the only option.

So to clarify, if I render 4:2:2 uncompressed, the transfer to digibeta will also preserve my separate audio tracks, right? Finally, how do I render an uncompressed 4:2:2 video? Do I render as an .avi 24p with 2-3 pulldown? Or are there special settings that need to be changed?

Thanks again for all your help.

When did 24p squeak into the mix?
You've got the right idea.
To render to 4:2:2, you'll look for the uncompressed render template, and set it up from there.
As far as separate audio channels, you'll need to render those separately.Inform the post house of what the channel names are, and they'll print those via SDI output. Where is this being displayed? Broadcast? DVD? If it's just DVD, then it's not necessary to add pulldown.

[Torrance Colvin]

It is for DVD output. I don't expect that it will be broadcast, but the distributor does have rights for broadcast. And just to make sure, I render it as NTSC (720x486) and not NTSC DV (720x480), correct?

Thanks, as always, for your help.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Unless it was acquired in 24p, I'd leave it at 60i for now, or, do some test outputs to be sure you want the 24p from 60i look. Personally, I usually like it. But since it's going to a distributor, they might not.

[Torrance Colvin]

Yep, it was acquired in 24p. The distributor purchased based on the 24p video, so I will definitely do an uncompressed 24p render. I will render with both the pulldown and without to compare.

[Nerses Papoyan]

Ok Guys, since you been talking about rendering I have a quick question.

I shot with XL H1 HD footage and SD 4:3 using the same camera.
then I downconvert the HD footage using the built in downconverter, so I have SD 16:9 aspect ratio, and also SD 4:3 aspect ratio.

Now the client needs the footage, in 4:3 SD format.
I put the footage together the good takes, and its in the timeline in Premiere Pro 1.5, now I want to give then the raw footage, they asking on a DVD, but I wanna give them the best quality possible. Any idea how can I export my video from Premiere Pro 1.5 to be able to deliver the best possible quality

THank you in advance
Nerses

[Glenn Chan]

Nerses, don't be afraid about starting your own thread. You will get a better answer to your question. Your question/issue is a seperate question/issue and belongs in its own thread. Things are easier to track that way.

2- Premiere questions should be posted in the Premiere forum.

3- It seems to me a little strange that the client wants the raw footage on a DVD. It may be that they don't know what they're doing, which could be bad for you. Are they going to edit the footage themselves???

If they knew how to edit, they would probably know a workflow to be using... i.e. sticking with one aspect ratio, using a firewire drive for raw footage instead of DVD.
If they don't know how to edit, then you may run into problems.

[Nerses Papoyan]

Glen thank you for replying,

This is what happend, I got hired by real estate comany that build and sell houses in town, and the marketing manager told me that he wants in HD, so I went to the house I took some shoots in HD 30f. They have this guy who going to edit for them, in Final Cut. I have some nice shots on HD, then I spoke to the editor that evening, he says that "No, we need in 4:3 aspect ratio, and if you could bring your camera so we can capture the fotage".
Now on the first HD tape, have some nice footage, but the second day SD 4:3 I dont really like the shots, becuase something wrong with my crane at that time, and start giving vibrations. so I want to use some of the HD shots wich been downconvered to SD, and the second day shots wich where recorded in 4:3 SD. Now I dont want to take the camera over there, thats the reason I was thinking what about if I make a DVD data Disc, and give them QuickTIme, or AVI file, but how can I make sure that its the best quality, or what would you suggest me to do.

Thank you in advance Glen

[Glenn Chan]

1- I don't think it's a good sign when you change your shooting format in the middle of your shoot. If the client is not sure about what he/she wants, it might cause you problems (non-payment, extra demands/changes, etc.).

Because you switched from 16:9 to 4:3 halfway, you now have to decide how you convert between the two:
A- If you shot and protected for 4:3 (i.e. nothing important in the sides of the image), just crop off the sides to get a 4:3 image.
B- If there is important detail in the sides, then you may have to pan and scan. This is time consuming, and you probably want to avoid this.
C- Letterbox the footage. Maybe the client wants this, maybe the client doesn't want this. But then you may have to crop the 4:3 footage you shot.

2- The most foolproof method is to put your footage onto miniDV tape, DV format. This will only work well if you did A from above... i.e. you only have non-anamorphic 4:3 DV footage on the tapes you give to the editor.

If you want to go the computer file route, use Quicktime DV. However, this will only work well with route A above.

The problem with B: The editor / client will be unhappy.
The problem with C: There may not be a problem, but be sure your client and the editor are on the same page.

*Theoretically, if you shot HDV then you can get better quality than Quicktime DV. However, I doubt it's worth the effort because the format you choose may not play well with the editor's FCP system.

[Don Donatello]

"And just to make sure, I render it as NTSC (720x486) and not NTSC DV (720x480), correct?"

YES you render 720x486 for out to digibeta.. you render adding normal pull down...you need a 29.97 clip

if you are taking it to a post house - find out which card they are using - if decklink on PC and they have vegas then you can render uncompressed using SONY YUV codec .. if they don't have Vegas then you render uncompressed using black magic codec .. if they have decklink on a Mac then you render as uncompressed QT using BM codec ... if they have Avid then ask them if you can use the QT meridian codec. always check with the company doing the transfer for their specific needs

if they have a AJA card ?? got me ask them - i don't think Aja hands out their codec for non Aja owners to use ...

the BM codec is free at decklinks site .. Meridian codec is free at avid site.