16:9 DVD Dual Option Menu? at DVinfo.net

Derek Choice · March 19th, 2006, 02:51 PM

Greetings!

I have googled and forum searched myself silly, typing to discern what the most common approach is to authoring DVD's (with 16:9 video) that appear seamless to the general public, across both widescreen and generic 4:3 TV's.

All footage was shot 16:9 on an XL-2, edited and rendered in Vegas at DV widescreen. DVD burned in Encore DVD, using widesceen output, and looks excellent on MY Panasonc HD TV, when switched to 16:9 mode. Otherwise, video is stretched when in 4:3 mode, which one would expect.

The big Q: For the general public, without the option to switch their TV to 16:9 mode, is it just a given that they are mandated to view an anamorphically stretched video? I have read that the DVD player is supposed to detect and automatically letterbox 16:9 video for a 4:3 TV... mine does not seem to be doing that.

I then tried re-rendering the 16:9 video in 4:3 letterboxed, figuring "okay the modern widescreen guys will view it a little smaller, but it will have a correct, letterboxed appearance to the general 4:3 public. Eh! Still goofy.

The Big Q #2: What about a dual DVD menu, after the First Play: I.e., "Select this if viewing on a widescreen capable TV", otherwise select THIS for standard TV", etc., etc.. There would then be TWO versions of the show on the same DVD (assuming the length is short enough to fit both).

Sounds like a strange solution, and I am probably missing something simple, or maybe it is that the world is in transition right now to more uniform wideness?

Many thanks in advance for any help or enlightenment one can provide.

:)

Derek

David Jimerson · March 19th, 2006, 03:45 PM

If using Encore, and want to know about Encore settings, you might want to ask this in the Adobe forums -- this isn't so much a Vegas issue as a DVD issue.

Most DVD players come at a default setting to letterbox anamorphic DVDs when displaying on a 4:3 TV -- this is generally a menu choice you have to make. An anamorphic DVD is encoded only one way, so it's up to the DVD player to display it appropriately, and it's most often up to the user to make sure the settings are correct.

Most people watch DVDs on standard sets, so they probably never even looked at the settings. However, you almost certainly did in order watch on a widescreen set. So, it thinks that the signal its putting out is being watched in 16:9 -- when you switch your TV display to 4:3, your DVD player doesn't know that. It's not going to detect it, either.

Burning a widescreen DVD should be fine for either kind of set (standard or 16:9), but the player has to be set appropriately.

Your "solution" was actually common on older DVD releases, but it was usually between a widescreen version and a full-screen version. It's not necessary for your purposes, because as I said above, a widescreen DVD wil be displayed correctly on either type of TV if the DVD player is set correctly.

Derek Choice · March 19th, 2006, 07:32 PM

Hi, David...

Thanks for the info. I guess I am pretty comfortable with the settings of both programs, it is more the general theory and standard practice of 16:9-ing to DVD, and what the end-user will see, that I am curious about.

It just seems that I have played a number of off-the-shelf DVD's, that are letterboxed with a visual 16:9 AR, without me having to set my TV to that AR. The only thing I can figure is that the engineer hard-burned the letterboxing, with a 4:3 AR, to achieve the visual 16:9 for every user. I.e., widescreen TV's would have crops on the edges as well???

I guess I just need someone to say: "I do it everyday. Render at 16:9 wide, author at wide, and let the consumer either view anamorphicing on a stock TV, select wide on a modern TV, or don't touch a thing on a widescreen TV... that's the way everyone does it and it is accepted by the end-user, and they are responsible for how it appears to them". Or, say "No, no, no... you're doing it all wrong. It will look fine to everyone, without touching any TV settings, if you just .. (insert solution here)... THAT is the way everyone does it."

From what you mention in your last sentence, I guess the former is correct... the end user is responsible for how it will look. Which makes me wonder, if shooting 16:9 runs a huge risk of looking stretchy to many unknowing viewers?

:)

Matt Brabender · March 19th, 2006, 07:49 PM

The only thing you can do is render and burn the project as 16:9 and be content it looks good on your properly setup tv.
Some people have no clue - will buy a $10,000 plasma screen and still have the dvd set to 4:3 display mode - and think it looks good. So I say for those people, you should not care because they don't.

Just make sure it looks good on a 16:9 and a 4:3 display and be done with it.

Derek Choice · March 19th, 2006, 08:08 PM

>>Some people have no clue - will buy a $10,000 plasma screen and still have the dvd set to 4:3 display mode<<

LOL... :) Yeahp.

>>Just make sure it looks good on a 16:9 and a 4:3 display and be done with it<<

That's my whole point... stretching on a 4:3 doesn't "look good" to me. I suppose it the big decision: accept having it look good to "those who know", and hope those who don't, don't notice.

I might still explore the dual layered menu option, for the interim, though... seems like a good way to have the best of both worlds?

Thanks!

Edit_Update, a few minutes later: Well, the dual menu actually works. I rendered (1) letterboxed 16:9 video to 4:3, AND, (1) widescreen render (both in Vegas, thus the post here). In the DVD authoring program, after the first play, I created a pre-menu for the user to select Widescreen or Standard TV. Each will take you to different (yet visually identical) menus, triggering the correct video for the initial aspect ratio selected. Leaving my TV on 4:3 and selecting Standard, plays the video with fixed letterboxing top and bottom, full width, and looks excellent. Switching the TV to 16:9, and menu-selecting the same, it plays the widescreen render.

Not sure if I really want to do it this way, but I am just happy I found a solution, if needed.

Peter Jefferson · March 19th, 2006, 11:28 PM

i always put any relevant info on my DVD covers. From Dolby Digital formats through to visual formats lke 4:3/16:9, "enhanced for progressive scan display" and the like

this way it gives them info on formats without me having to tell thm anything

David Jimerson · March 20th, 2006, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek Choice

Hi, David...

Thanks for the info. I guess I am pretty comfortable with the settings of both programs, it is more the general theory and standard practice of 16:9-ing to DVD, and what the end-user will see, that I am curious about.

It just seems that I have played a number of off-the-shelf DVD's, that are letterboxed with a visual 16:9 AR, without me having to set my TV to that AR. The only thing I can figure is that the engineer hard-burned the letterboxing, with a 4:3 AR, to achieve the visual 16:9 for every user. I.e., widescreen TV's would have crops on the edges as well???

I guess I just need someone to say: "I do it everyday. Render at 16:9 wide, author at wide, and let the consumer either view anamorphicing on a stock TV, select wide on a modern TV, or don't touch a thing on a widescreen TV... that's the way everyone does it and it is accepted by the end-user, and they are responsible for how it appears to them". Or, say "No, no, no... you're doing it all wrong. It will look fine to everyone, without touching any TV settings, if you just .. (insert solution here)... THAT is the way everyone does it."

From what you mention in your last sentence, I guess the former is correct... the end user is responsible for how it will look. Which makes me wonder, if shooting 16:9 runs a huge risk of looking stretchy to many unknowing viewers?

:)

OK.

I do it every day -- render and burn 16:9 anamorphic DVDs, and people with 4:3 TVs with their DVD players properly set up never complain.

You don't need to burn both. You really don't. Just about every single movie put on DVD today is anamorphic, and there's only one version on the disc. If they're seeing those movies properly, they'll see yours properly.

Some older DVDs are letterboxed and NOT anamorphic, so yes -- the black bars ARE burned in as part of the picture.

And even on anamorphic DVDs, if the picture is of a wider aspect ratio than 16:9 (which almost every Hollywood movie IS), then black bars are still burned into the picture.

Greg Boston · March 20th, 2006, 11:12 AM

In short Derek, you place 16:9 video on the DVD, but it doesn't end there. Your DVD authoring software may require you to set an 'anamorphic' flag bit via a checkbox or whatever in the encode settings. This is the special signal to the DVD player as to what to do with the output video depending on what type of display device is selected(16:9, 4:3LB or 4:3 Pan and Scan) in the DVD player's video device set-up menu. Most folks with a standard tv would set 4:3 letterbox.

-gb-

Derek Choice · March 22nd, 2006, 08:51 AM

(great "Suburb" quote, Greg! ")

Thanks, all, for the input. Strangely enough, both rendering and authoring now at wide mode across the board, is working perfectly. Not sure what I missed on the first few passes, but the masses were right... "if you shoot wide, render and burn wide, and let the DVD players do the rest".

Much easier than my odd dual-menu solution...

:)

March 19th, 2006, 02:51 PM	#1
Derek Choice New Boot Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 12	16:9 DVD Dual Option Menu? Greetings! I have googled and forum searched myself silly, typing to discern what the most common approach is to authoring DVD's (with 16:9 video) that appear seamless to the general public, across both widescreen and generic 4:3 TV's. All footage was shot 16:9 on an XL-2, edited and rendered in Vegas at DV widescreen. DVD burned in Encore DVD, using widesceen output, and looks excellent on MY Panasonc HD TV, when switched to 16:9 mode. Otherwise, video is stretched when in 4:3 mode, which one would expect. The big Q: For the general public, without the option to switch their TV to 16:9 mode, is it just a given that they are mandated to view an anamorphically stretched video? I have read that the DVD player is supposed to detect and automatically letterbox 16:9 video for a 4:3 TV... mine does not seem to be doing that. I then tried re-rendering the 16:9 video in 4:3 letterboxed, figuring "okay the modern widescreen guys will view it a little smaller, but it will have a correct, letterboxed appearance to the general 4:3 public. Eh! Still goofy. The Big Q #2: What about a dual DVD menu, after the First Play: I.e., "Select this if viewing on a widescreen capable TV", otherwise select THIS for standard TV", etc., etc.. There would then be TWO versions of the show on the same DVD (assuming the length is short enough to fit both). Sounds like a strange solution, and I am probably missing something simple, or maybe it is that the world is in transition right now to more uniform wideness? Many thanks in advance for any help or enlightenment one can provide. :) Derek

March 19th, 2006, 03:45 PM	#2
David Jimerson Jubal 28 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 872	If using Encore, and want to know about Encore settings, you might want to ask this in the Adobe forums -- this isn't so much a Vegas issue as a DVD issue. Most DVD players come at a default setting to letterbox anamorphic DVDs when displaying on a 4:3 TV -- this is generally a menu choice you have to make. An anamorphic DVD is encoded only one way, so it's up to the DVD player to display it appropriately, and it's most often up to the user to make sure the settings are correct. Most people watch DVDs on standard sets, so they probably never even looked at the settings. However, you almost certainly did in order watch on a widescreen set. So, it thinks that the signal its putting out is being watched in 16:9 -- when you switch your TV display to 4:3, your DVD player doesn't know that. It's not going to detect it, either. Burning a widescreen DVD should be fine for either kind of set (standard or 16:9), but the player has to be set appropriately. Your "solution" was actually common on older DVD releases, but it was usually between a widescreen version and a full-screen version. It's not necessary for your purposes, because as I said above, a widescreen DVD wil be displayed correctly on either type of TV if the DVD player is set correctly. __________________ www.wrightsvillebeachstudios.com

March 19th, 2006, 07:32 PM	#3
Derek Choice New Boot Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 12	Hi, David... Thanks for the info. I guess I am pretty comfortable with the settings of both programs, it is more the general theory and standard practice of 16:9-ing to DVD, and what the end-user will see, that I am curious about. It just seems that I have played a number of off-the-shelf DVD's, that are letterboxed with a visual 16:9 AR, without me having to set my TV to that AR. The only thing I can figure is that the engineer hard-burned the letterboxing, with a 4:3 AR, to achieve the visual 16:9 for every user. I.e., widescreen TV's would have crops on the edges as well??? I guess I just need someone to say: "I do it everyday. Render at 16:9 wide, author at wide, and let the consumer either view anamorphicing on a stock TV, select wide on a modern TV, or don't touch a thing on a widescreen TV... that's the way everyone does it and it is accepted by the end-user, and they are responsible for how it appears to them". Or, say "No, no, no... you're doing it all wrong. It will look fine to everyone, without touching any TV settings, if you just .. (insert solution here)... THAT is the way everyone does it." From what you mention in your last sentence, I guess the former is correct... the end user is responsible for how it will look. Which makes me wonder, if shooting 16:9 runs a huge risk of looking stretchy to many unknowing viewers? :)

March 19th, 2006, 07:49 PM	#4
Matt Brabender Major Player Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 230	The only thing you can do is render and burn the project as 16:9 and be content it looks good on your properly setup tv. Some people have no clue - will buy a $10,000 plasma screen and still have the dvd set to 4:3 display mode - and think it looks good. So I say for those people, you should not care because they don't. Just make sure it looks good on a 16:9 and a 4:3 display and be done with it.

March 19th, 2006, 08:08 PM	#5
Derek Choice New Boot Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 12	>>Some people have no clue - will buy a $10,000 plasma screen and still have the dvd set to 4:3 display mode<< LOL... :) Yeahp. >>Just make sure it looks good on a 16:9 and a 4:3 display and be done with it<< That's my whole point... stretching on a 4:3 doesn't "look good" to me. I suppose it the big decision: accept having it look good to "those who know", and hope those who don't, don't notice. I might still explore the dual layered menu option, for the interim, though... seems like a good way to have the best of both worlds? Thanks! Edit_Update, a few minutes later: Well, the dual menu actually works. I rendered (1) letterboxed 16:9 video to 4:3, AND, (1) widescreen render (both in Vegas, thus the post here). In the DVD authoring program, after the first play, I created a pre-menu for the user to select Widescreen or Standard TV. Each will take you to different (yet visually identical) menus, triggering the correct video for the initial aspect ratio selected. Leaving my TV on 4:3 and selecting Standard, plays the video with fixed letterboxing top and bottom, full width, and looks excellent. Switching the TV to 16:9, and menu-selecting the same, it plays the widescreen render. Not sure if I really want to do it this way, but I am just happy I found a solution, if needed.

March 19th, 2006, 11:28 PM	#6
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	i always put any relevant info on my DVD covers. From Dolby Digital formats through to visual formats lke 4:3/16:9, "enhanced for progressive scan display" and the like this way it gives them info on formats without me having to tell thm anything

March 20th, 2006, 11:12 AM	#8
Greg Boston Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: DFW area, TX Posts: 6,117 Images: 1	In short Derek, you place 16:9 video on the DVD, but it doesn't end there. Your DVD authoring software may require you to set an 'anamorphic' flag bit via a checkbox or whatever in the encode settings. This is the special signal to the DVD player as to what to do with the output video depending on what type of display device is selected(16:9, 4:3LB or 4:3 Pan and Scan) in the DVD player's video device set-up menu. Most folks with a standard tv would set 4:3 letterbox. -gb-

March 22nd, 2006, 08:51 AM	#9
Derek Choice New Boot Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 12	(great "Suburb" quote, Greg! ") Thanks, all, for the input. Strangely enough, both rendering and authoring now at wide mode across the board, is working perfectly. Not sure what I missed on the first few passes, but the masses were right... "if you shoot wide, render and burn wide, and let the DVD players do the rest". Much easier than my odd dual-menu solution... :)