Vegas Field Order and Print To Tape

[Dale Paterson]

Good Morning, and thanks for the replies.

Now that is exactly what I was getting at i.e. in all of the scenarios that I described in this thread the setting of 'Deinterlace method' in your Project Properties SHOULD BE of no consequence BUT IT IS.

Basically (my) golden rules are:

When rendering HDV footage to ANYTHING ELSE - 'Deinterlace method' CANNOT be set to 'None'.

When rendering DV to ANYTHING ELSE - 'Deinterlace method' MUST be set to 'None'.

The problem, of course, comes in when you try and mix HDV footage with DV footage!

Thanks for the replies once again - I just needed to clear things up in my mind and I am relieved to see that (for now) my understanding and logic was correct.

For anyone that is interested I started compiling a sort of 'Black Book' for myself (basically started because of this issue).

Now that I know that it is not me that was doing something wrong with regard to this 'Deinterlace method' issue I make this document available to everyone and hope that it helps someone else that may be confused about certain issues and it may save others some time in the long run.

Basically it contains information relating to software that I have tested and/or use with Vegas.

The document was created with MS Windows' Wordpad (.rtf).

I update this document every so often when I come across issues and their solutions (at least the ones that work for me).

Please feel free to comment on the content and if there is anything that anyone can contribute or would like to see detailed in this document then please feel free to let me know.

The link to the document is:

http://www.audiovisualproductions.co...oBlackBook.rtf

Have fun.

And thank you DSE and Glenn for the trouble.

Regards,

Dale.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

You're welcome for the trouble, but regarding your "black book" there is a lot of incorrect or misinformation written there.
here's what I'd recommend you do for safety sake.
Go to File/Project Properties, and on the upper left (I think you already found this earlier), go to Match Media Properties, click that, the dialog will ask you to browse for a file.
Choose an HDV converted file, ala CineForm.
That alone, will eliminate most of the "issues" you've got in your black book.
For example, your segment on titles is very incorrect. If you create titles that are 1440 x 1080, there won't be a problem with interlace flicker.
I suspect a lot of yoru problems are due to the various codecs, etc that you're trying or experimenting with. MainConcept, for instance, should never be part of the quotient. (Outside of Vegas built in tools)
When transcoding or downsampling, the render properties should always be set to "BEST" with HDV.
Settings in Vegas don't matter one whit when you capture. "Capture" is a misnomer left over from analog days, just like "Digitize" is. When you transfer files from the camcorder to the computer, it's merely a data transfer. No different in any way, from connecting a new hard drive to your computer, copying and pasting files to another hard drive. Except instead of being a round disk, the storage on the camcorder is a linear hard drive.
Many, many people do HDV to SD and HDV to HDCAM, or HD to hard drive delivery every day with Vegas, and don't have these problems. I'd recommend that you work within Vegas only for a project, not mess around with DVCPro anything, or Matrox or MainConcept, etc, and just let Vegas manage everything for you. Some codecs, like DVCPro, want to be UFF, some want to be LFF, but Vegas always knows what *it* wants to deal with.

[Dale Paterson]

Again DSE thanks for the reply.

However - I ALWAYS use the 'Match Media Settings' when starting a new project and that does not automatically solve the issues that I describe in my 'Black Book' particularly with regard to Interlacing.

Now that you mention it have you noticed that when you use 'Match Media Settings' and select a Cineform converted HDV file - the template that is automatically selected is '(unknown)' or '(undefined)' (one of the two - the exact description escapes me for now).

Even although the actual attributes of the Cineform converted file in the Project Properties are correctly detected one would think that Vegas would automatically select the 'HDV 1080-50i (1440x1080, 25.000 fps)' template but not so.

This has also always worried me because Vegas is obviously detecting something something in a Cineform converted file that I don't know about!

Put it this way - that document is the culmination of at least two years testing, rendering, testing again, making the final DVD, testing again etc. etc. (you get the picture). I just decided to start documenting my findings to save myself time and effort and eliminate guess work in the long run. I have made more test DVD's than I have camera hours or footage!!!

I will have another look at the title section (and make more test DVD's)!

Anyway if anyone else has similar problems at some stage I hope my document will at least give them a starting point for troubleshooting.

Believe you me the issues described in the document don't even compare to the problem that I found today (see my last post in the thread 'Vegas, 5.1 Surround, and DirectSound')!!!

Regards,

Dale.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

You still haven't specified where you are monitoring the media. This alone is a huge factor in what we could be talking about.
I'm fairly well convinced it's that you're using outside, odd codecs that use various upper/lower field combinations, plus using HDV in which to do it.
We do this all day, every day, with HDV and uncompressed HD, with some of the DVCProHD starting to sneak in. None of your "black book" issues are issues for us, and we do roughly 90% (sometimes 100%) of our titling in Vegas, and all of our output is either to SD-DVD or HDCAM. In other words, we're working with multiple formats, but we keep it all in Vegas unless we send something to Boris or AE for compositing, and then we use uncompressed in all situations.
As far as CineForm, I believe that they're just not putting language in the header file that Vegas is reading. Vegas isn't looking at the actual frame, it's looking at the header info. I don't use CineForm all that much anymore, because it's just too dang hard keeping up with all their versions, telephone or email installation support, but on the two machines I'm running old versions of CineForm on, this isn't a problem at all.
No one else seems to be having these issues either, which leads me to suspect your workflow and codec installations/usage. As soon as you start introducing outside tools, this is where it can get very squirrely, and for obvious reasons, Sony won't support it.
No disrespect intended, but I don't find your "tests" compelling at all. There is no data about how your workflow specifically goes, the subjects are diverse and non-focused, no screenshots to illustrate the problems you're seeing, no explanation of where you're monitoring, no explanation of the final DVD output nor how you arrived at conclusions, there is just a lot of missing information, on top of which, you're mixing information, codecs, and what I feel is jumping to conclusions. Vegas is no where near perfect, but thousands of people are daily doing what you describe as difficult.
I'd suggest (if you want clear and detailed answers) that you put up a few seconds of an m2t you've shot.
then describe your exact workflow, and detail why you are deviating from any standard/in Vegas workflow.
Then describe all tools from hardward and software, that you've used in the process.
Put up a screenshot of your finished video to be analyzed. Let others see if they can match the workflow and problem.
At that point, we'll all have all the information needed, and can work towards a specific conclusion and solution, so that it's not based on supposition, mixed facts, and various workflows described as one workflow.

[Dale Paterson]

I'm sorry if my information seems a bit jumbled up - basically this thread started as one thing and then moved on to another topic - my fault.

I always preview my stuff using a normal, consumer, set top DVD and ordinary TV, as this will always be my final product (PAL).

I will create DVDA ready MPEG2 files and post them on one of my websites.

Unfortuanately if you are serious about having a look at some of the issues that I have noted you will have to download the files and then create a DVD using my files. Is this what you are recommending?

I will also post my workflow for each example detailing all media, project, and render settings etc.

Let me know if this is acceptable.

I must just tell you, by the way, that the some of the issues that I have noted manifested themselves on a 'clean' installation i.e. XP and Vegas (no other codecs, software, etc. etc. except for Cineform Connect HD) so I am not convinced that is a codec issue.

If nothing else I have now learned something new from you - I did not know that Vegas only read a file header - I was always under the impression that it actually analyzed the file or at least the first frame. This explains much to me e.g. when rendering a file using Boris RED 3GL and ensuring that the uncompressed Boris output is, for example, 'Interlaced, bottom field first' Vegas always insists that the file is 'Interlaced, top field first' when using the 'Match Media Settings'. I know the Boris file in this example is actually 'Interlaced, bottom field first' from doing various tests and have to change the field order in the Vegas project. Now I know why although it is dissapointing.

Dale.

[Dale Paterson]

Actually Douglas - you have now made me even more curious.

You would not happen to have the details / layout / example of a media file header?

Regards,

Dale.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

I always preview my stuff using a normal, consumer, set top DVD and ordinary TV, as this will always be my final product (PAL).

that in and of itself speaks VOLUMES about the problems you're having. HDV downsampled on the fly to SD looks horrible.
ALWAYS work in HD until the last possible second, then transcode to SD on final render. Never drop HDV into an SD timeline and expect quality. Never preview HD on an SD monitor and expect anything looking decent. There is a lot of processing involved, and Vegas can't do it on the fly and be clean/clear.

[Dale Paterson]

Good Morning!

NO, NO, NO - I seem to really have a problem explaining myself lately.

Sorry - by 'monitoring the media' I thought you meant 'how am I monitoring my final output'.

My final output is to SD DVD for SD TV and this is where I judge the quality of my work as this is what I would distribute.

I 'monitor the media' either on a secondary windows display (for HDV or HDV to SD DV) or on a flat screen high quality TV via a Canopus ADVC 100 (for SD DV or HDV to SD DV).

However - mostly my footage looks fine 'when monitored' - the issues that I have raised appear on the final product i.e. SD DVD and SD TV - and - as this IS the final product - it does not matter what I 'monitor' on - the final product is what counts.

Anyway - do you have a sample of a media file header (see my last post to you)?

Dale.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by Dale Paterson

Anyway - do you have a sample of a media file header (see my last post to you)?

Unless you use a tool like G-Spot, the header is invisible to you.
You're welcome to download G-spot or other file examination tool and look at the header yourself. There is also a VFW file examination tool out there, but I've forgotten what it is called. There might be another way to view it, but I'm not aware of it.

[Dale Paterson]

Hi,

I had a look for this information after posting my initial query to you and found LOTS of stuff on Microsoft's website.

Like I said before I had tried G Spot and downloaded the latest version available after our previous correspondece.

It would appear that G Spot attempts to read the header of a .AVI file but it obviously does not recognise a lot of the FOURCC information (I think that is the term) particularly with regard to the interlace or field order information.

From what I gather (after a brief read through of some of the stuff on the Microsoft site) interlaced video has to be specially dealt with and I'm pretty sure that it is for this reason that Vegas sometimes does not correctly detect the field order of a file (possibly because the other software or codec manufacturers are not strictly adhering to these standards - I'm not sure why - but it is at least comforting to know that I can trust my own judgement when in comes to the field order of a file - I tended to always trust Vegas' judgement and question my own - even when I absolutely certain as to the field order of the file).

Anyway - let me go and shoot some HDV footage for you to prove to you that I am not going nuts with my 'Deinterlace method' issue!

Regards,

Dale.

[Neil Fontaine]

This is interesting because I was actually wondering what is best for tv, so I found a help page in vegas. It says for dvd TV display use upper field first.

And no progressive scan for viewing on PC.

When I go to save a non progressive file to dvd in mpeg-2 format; to be viewed on a SD TV, the default it gives me for field order under the video tab is Interlaced, bottom fielf first.

Should this not be set to top field first if viewed on a SD TV?

bottom field first is the same as lower field right?

[Dale Paterson]

Hi Neil,

I had forgotten about this thread (never actually uploaded the files for demonstration purposes).

Anyway - to answer your question - the golden rule - bottom line - do not change the field order of a file!

DV is always interlaced, lower / even / bottom field first so when rendering to MPEG2 for DVD use interlaced, lower / even / bottom field first.

HDV (if not progressive scan) is interlaced, upper / odd / top field first.

As far as I know a normal (not progressive scan capable) TV and / or DVD player does not care whether it is upper or lower field first.

Regards,

Dale.

[Dale Paterson]

After replying to Neil's message yesterday I realised that I had not posted the files as promised for Douglas to have a look at.

The links are:

http://www.audiovisualproductions.co...end_Fields.mpg

and

http://www.audiovisualproductions.co.za/video/None.mpg

Workflow:

Copy .m2t file from FX1E using Cineform Connect HD
Convert .m2t to .avi using Cineform Connect HD using options 'Large' and 'Interlaced'
Open file in Vegas after matching project settings to media (using 'Match Media Settings') - no other changes except for de-interlace method as described below
Render to DVDA PAL video stream ensuring that field order is set to 'Upper Field First' - first with de-interlace method in project properties set to 'None' ('None.mpg') and then with de-interlace method in project properties set to 'Blend Fields' ('Blend_Fields.mpg').

Unfortuanately both of these files have to be put onto a PAL DVD and viewed on a TV to see the problem that I described in this thread (I am assuming that you have a multi-system DVD player and TV).

You will notice that the file 'Blend_Fields.mpg' displays noticeable interlace flicker where as the file 'None.mpg' has no interlace flicker at all.

Both of these files were created on a newly installed workstation (about two weeks ago) i.e. other than Windows XP Pro there is nothing else on this workstation except for Sony Vegas 6.0d i.e. no other codecs installed other than Cineform and Vegas standard codecs.

Based on this I stand by my 'Video Black Book' details with regard to converting HDV to SD DV using Vegas unless someone can give me an explanation as to why when using 'Blend Fields' (or 'Interpolate Fields') is interlace flicker evident.

Once again - I am not asking for the footage to be de-interlaced at any point anyway - so why should the setting of de-interlace method make any difference at all?

Regards,

Dale.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Why are you rendering to UFF?? SD MPEG is LFF. Of course messing with the fields will create this issue. Can't download your files now as I'm on dialup for the next 10 days or so, but that alone is a pointer to problems.

[Dale Paterson]

Hello again.

Sorry - but I was always under the impression that you would get this issue if you did in fact change the field order i.e. my Cineform HDV footage is interlaced, upper field first, so I render using upper field first. Is this not the golden rule?

While waiting for your input I will render to SD MPEG2 with lower field first and see if that makes a difference.

Regards,

Dale.