Vegas or Adobe 1.5

[David Griffey]

I am using Adobe 1.5 but thinking about changing to Vegas. Are they both the same or does each program have it's own benefits?

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by David Griffey

I am using Adobe 1.5 but thinking about changing to Vegas. Are they both the same or does each program have it's own benefits?

Well....they're not at all the same....:-)

Vegas is significantly more meticulous, faster to create with, much more user friendly, and it rarely, if ever crashes. You can do a lot more with Vegas, particularly in the HDV/SD conversion arena, plus 24p is substantially better supported in Vegas as opposed to Premiere. Color correction, framerate conversions, format conversions, quality of output image...Vegas is simply better.

Premiere's greatest strength over Vegas, IMO, is its integration with Photoshop and After Effects. Outside of that, I can't imagine why anyone would be sticking with Premiere vs Vegas. FCP, Avid Express Pro...yes. Premiere? Can't understand why folks would ever choose it over Vegas.
Premiere has a few other good features, but the slowness in creation is a big turn off for me. I like the hardware layer support, but hardware is more or less going away in the DV arena, and other than the Axio with Premiere, there is no HDV hardware support.

I'm sure others will have varying opinions, however. :-)
Either way, Vegas is a great tool to have along side Premiere for converting, compositing, etc.

[David Griffey]

Thanks, I have heard that the program was easy. This scared me a little. Sometimes easy is not better. It sounds like you know your stuff so thanks for the advice.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by David Griffey

Thanks, I have heard that the program was easy. This scared me a little. Sometimes easy is not better. It sounds like you know your stuff so thanks for the advice.

I don't know if I know my stuff or not, but of the 5 books available on Vegas, I wrote or co-wrote 4 of them. :-) And we/I was the first out on DVD with DVD based training, and we still have the largest selection/number of hours of DVD training too. (blatant advertising here) Tim Duncan also has a good training DVD set out for Vegas.

You might visit the VASST site where you'll find nearly 2000 resources for Sony Vegas. Most of them free.

http://www.vasst.com You'll have to sign in, but it's also free. you'll aso find that the Vegas community is generally exceptionally friendly, easy to get answers from, and very willing to help. With folks like me, Jeffrey Fisher, John Rofrano, Keith Kolbo, Edward Troxel, and a huge host of others....you'll never want for an answer to much of anything relating to Vegas or HDV.

[Peter Jefferson]

Im with DSE on this one...

the workflow in itself is far FAR superior to most NLEs in its range.. to me its even far more flexible (and powerful to a certain extent) than Avid and FCP.. when it comes to audio and video integration within an NLE, Vegas cannot be beaten...

One thing i like about PP1.5 is that it can capture as CineformAVI straight out of the Z1... however in Vegas, u must capture as M2t, and then convert to CF...

as for the actual editing workflow.. ive used and distributed all of the available NLEs on the market (even "realtime" HDV systems like Edius NX and SP) and still find Vegas to be the most easiest to "get into" Its also the fastest when u consider most "realtime" processes require "prerendering anyway....

Some diehard adobe fans will diss it, however i easily cut at least 6 times faster on Vegas...

[John Rofrano]

Originally Posted by Peter Jefferson

One thing i like about PP1.5 is that it can capture as CineformAVI straight out of the Z1... however in Vegas, u must capture as M2t, and then convert to CF...

Yea, but if you purchase Connect HD you can capture direct to Cineform AVI. I do it all the time.

I’m with DSE and Peter on this one too...

Of course, posting this in a Vegas forum you would expect us all to wax poetic about Vegas. I know Douglas has used both. I used Premiere in the 5.5 and 6.0 days and my impression was that it was a lot harder to use than it needed to be. It also didn’t seem to do much without a lot of expensive plug-ins. Then I discovered Vegas and there was no looking back.

Vegas is all about workflow, and workflow is all about productivity. Instead of going into the menus to do everything like Premiere, in Vegas you manipulate the clips directly. Need a fade, just adjust the clip ending to add a fade envelope. Need to adjust opacity, just manipulate the top of the clip to bring opacity down. Need to change the clip speed, just Ctrl+Drag the end of the clip to stretch it longer or shorter. This direct manipulation approach speeds up editing tremendously. (no fumbling through menus)

Vegas is also format agnostic. You can drop anything you have a codec for on the timeline and it will instantly conform it to your project properties. No need to reformat files to use on the timeline. You can even drop animated GIF files on the timeline and get an instant network bug effect with transparency. The built in color correction, chroma key, 3D motion, compositing, 24p support, etc. are done extremely well. It’s a powerful NLE that’s easy to use.

But don’t believe us. Download the trial of Vegas 6 and check it out for yourself. It is very different than Premiere, but in a good way. Give yourself some time to learn the workflow and I think you’ll agree that it’s the most productive environment to edit in.

~jr

[David Newman]

Lots of praise for Vegas and that is understandable. But as this is a HDV forum, and CineForm products are used to enhance both Vegas and Premiere Pro, I have to point out that for HDV work, Premiere Pro with Aspect HD is a least 2X (often 3X) more real-time than Vegas with Connect HD. This is due to Premiere's hardware layer support that Douglas referred to. Aspect HD is all software, but it plugs in to the hardware layer to allow more channels of real-time playback and effects. It is for this reason Premiere HD + Aspect HD is a little more costly than Vegas + Connect HD. In the end I have state that each NLE does have its own benefits as there are both usage and technical differences between these tools. In addition, for highend work, there are reasons that Prospect HD and Axio are Premiere only -- Vegas is an 8-bit RGB only application, whereas Premiere can be upgrade via these third party tools to process 10-bit YUV, which can greatly help for deep color correction. I use both NLEs for testing and quality experiments but I still more comfortable with Premiere when I work on personal film projects, switching from one NLE to the other is not always easy.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by David Newman

whereas Premiere can be upgrade via these third party tools to process 10-bit YUV, which can greatly help for deep color correction. I use both NLEs for testing and quality experiments but I still more comfortable with Premiere when I work on personal film projects, switching from one NLE to the other is not always easy.

All true, and all relevant...now if the app only could edit more quickly, and was stable.

[David Newman]

I feel editing speed is purely dependent on user experience, not on the application, I can editing faster under Premiere as I'm more comfortable with its layout and short cuts -- it's just what I'm used to. This stability issue is surprizing to me as I hardly ever crash either application, yet I have crashed both. I think generally people like to ding Premiere for stability as is used to be a bigger issue, just it is no longer the case.

[Rick Steele]

I guess I'm still a Premiere 1.5 user but have recently run into some stability problems specifically with complex projects involving sequencing. (I believe Vegas calls this "nesting"?).

Regardless, I'd dump it in a minute if I was convinced Vegas was as "intuitive" and easy to use as everybody lets on to be.

I've downloaded the trial and have been struggling with it the past few days. (Perhaps I'm getting too old).

I do a lot of work on a laptop and don't carry a second monitor with me when I travel. Can anyone tell me how to get vegas to show a "full screen preview window" without undocking it and dragging it?

It seems the CTRL+ALT+D layout saving functions don't remember actual window sizes - just their docking layout, right? Premiere is much different in this respect. (I think)

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by David Newman

I feel editing speed is purely dependent on user experience, not on the application, I can editing faster under Premiere as I'm more comfortable with its layout and short cuts -- it's just what I'm used to. This stability issue is surprizing to me as I hardly ever crash either application, yet I have crashed both. I think generally people like to ding Premiere for stability as is used to be a bigger issue, just it is no longer the case.

LOL...anytime you want to have an edit-off w/me David...I'm all up for it.
I know you might not grasp the full workflow of Vegas yet, but given than I used to train Premiere, (and rarely still do) I know both apps well. Ain't no way, no how, that you can accomplish the same tasks as quickly in the two applications, given the same media, same end goal. It's absolutely impossible.
This is why in everyforum out there, you'll find a plethora of former Premiere users using Vegas, but it's exceptionally rare that you'll find former Vegas (or any other NLE) users moving to Premiere. Some might move to Avid, small few moving to Canopus, maybe a teenie percentage moving to Liquid, a larger bunch might move to FCP, but large numbers move to Vegas, too. It's interesting watching what's happening with Premiere right now, and who knows...

Rick, Double click the menu bar in the preview window. It won't ever go full screen unless you have a second monitor, but if it's DV, you don't want full screen, because that would be at least twice native resolution on most computer systems. It would look terrible.
On a two monitor Vegas system, the second monitor can always be used as a scalable, full screen preview, this is set up in the Options/Prefs/Preview Device tab.
You're right, the Alt+D is only for docking/view layouts.

[David Newman]

Hey Spot, I'm not saying that I'm super fast at editing, remember I'm more of an engineer than filmmaker. As such I have a good understand of the underlying technology in which Premiere still has the upper hand in some areas, as you have acknowledged. So "given the same media, same end goal", there are some end goals where Vegas is a non-starter, just as there are other goals where Vegas is better. I just find the Vegas is near prefect rhetoric not all that helpful, particularly for a general question like "Vegas or Abode 1.5." Clearly each user has needs that differ, and this must be used to determine the best product for those users. I'm only trying to offer a counterwieght, remember this was posted under the Vegas section, not many Premiere fans will be reading here.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by David Newman

Hey Spot, I'm not saying that I'm super fast at editing, remember I'm more of an engineer than filmmaker. As such I have a good understand of the underlying technology in which Premiere still has the upper hand in some areas, as you have acknowledged. So "given the same media, same end goal", there are some end goals where Vegas is a non-starter, just as there are other goals where Vegas is better. I just find the Vegas is near prefect rhetoric not all that helpful, particularly for a general question like "Vegas or Abode 1.5." Clearly each user has needs that differ, and this must be used to determine the best product for those users. I'm only trying to offer a counterwieght, remember this was posted under the Vegas section, not many Premiere fans will be reading here.

I agree with the statement above, yes. Were Vegas perfect, I wouldn't use the other apps that I use from time to time. Remember, we're about profit here, and what the client wants nor needs determines what tools we use, just like anyone else should/would be doing.
That said, for *most* uses, Premiere doesn't do what Vegas can do, and that's really the bottom line. 10 bit is great....but how many editors are really using Premiere for 10bit? If you're editing at that level for the majority of your workflow, you need a solid SDI studio setup for most functions, and Premiere (nor Vegas) will generally be the centerpoint for those operations. This is where Avid and FCP really own the market due to the lack of complete support and/or lack of features or hardware that make this viable for the majority of higher end users.

Interestingly enough, another community with a very active group of Premiere users is currently even now, ripping on how stable Vegas is vs Premiere. This is frankly, my biggest issue.

[David Newman]

I guess I never run Premiere bare, meaning I'm aways running Aspect HD or Prospect HD, both tools replace so much of the Premiere playback and rendering engine, it is very stable this way. So a don't recommend Premiere without CineForm tools, for that matter I don't HDV in Vegas without CineForm either. :)

Regarding 10-bit workflows, FCP has nothing on Prospect HD, a little of my own rhetoric.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by David Newman

Regarding 10-bit workflows, FCP has nothing on Prospect HD, a little of my own rhetoric.

I know that, you know that. Try explaining that to an FCP user. :-) For DI's, you guys are far and away the best, and frankly...we did some codec comparisons in Canopus for a new camera coming on, and Vegas with CineForm...well..you probably know what we found. I'm sure you're testing in-house.