Architect problem... claims project is more GB than it is

Jack Smith · July 6th, 2015, 09:57 PM

I found that sometimes it did over estimate the size, so I would prepare the disk without burning and if it came in under max size burn it. If oversize decide how much over eg. 10% then rerender at 15% lower bitrate.

Graham Bernard · July 7th, 2015, 04:14 AM

I don't know if this has been raised in this thread, but along with BitRate Calc I also use BitRateViewer. This free utility gives an excellent graphical representational Graph of the whole file. This shows me the PEAKS and TROUGHS of the rates varying. On more than one occasion I have been able to pinpoint a "rogue" peak that was scrambling/cluging-up my otherwise perfect DVD.

BitRate Viewer: Bitrate Viewer - Main Page

Cheers

Grazie

Mike Kujbida · July 7th, 2015, 12:30 PM

Robert, Don's recommendation is the way I do it if I have multiple files to create for a DVD.
I use the bitrate calculator found at http://www.johncline.com/bitcalc110.zip
It's never let me down and I find it to be a great tool.
I do make a few changes to it when it first comes up as indicated in the screen shots below.
I change the default safety margin from 1% to 5%.
I click the Settings box and, on the screen that comes up, click 1 kilobit = 1024 bits.
In that same window, I set the Audio encoding type and bitrate option to 192 kB/S as that's the DVDa standard. If you prefer to use a higher value, adjust accordingly.

FYI, I used it set to 2 hours (for your video) and got the following numbers (see screen shot below)

Robert Benda · July 7th, 2015, 09:34 PM

OK, I found it, I think.

Not only do I have to be more careful about EXACTLY which Architect codec I use, (DVD Architect 24p NTSC Widescreen video stream), more importantly

In Architect's properties (under File) is the option for... bit rate. Even when I'm using the correct bit rate in Vegas, when I put the files into Architect, its recalculating all of it at 8 bit instead of whatever I rendered the mpg files at.

That means my 5 or 6 Mbps files end up as 8 Mbps, except, of course, they're not really. That's why Architect thinks my 9 gigs of files is 12 or 13.

Mike Kujbida · July 8th, 2015, 07:01 AM

Welcome to the black art that is DVD encoding :)
Here are two screen shots from the render settings panel using your two hour timeline for the bitrate I recommended in my earlier post.
Make sure to choose the 2-pass option as this will maximize your final quality. It will take longer but the results will be worth it.
I always set my Video Quality slider to it's highest setting.
On the Project tab (this is in Pro 12), I set the Video rendering Quality option to Best. Once again this will make for a longer render but the final quality, especially still images, will benefit from it.

You can save this as a preset if you know you'll have similar length projects in the future.

Robert Benda · July 8th, 2015, 08:20 AM

Thanks, Mike, that is what I've been using.

With my new find, I think I may try rendering the mpg from Vegas as best quality and full 8 bit, like Architect wants, then let Architect do the conversion down to whatever bit rate I need. Its going to do it anyway, why not let it.

I may start doing a bit of math for my Vegas template, make sure I'm doing as close to loss less for my long term storage as possible. Right now, I pass the clients their DVDs, then on USB they get mp4s and a VOB to make more DVDs if they want. For me, I'm storing mp4s and mpgs, but maybe that should be AVI to avoid loss.

I am shooting on a 5d Mark ii and 70Ds. The 5d is under 6 MBps, I believe (though Magic Lantern let's you bump that way up to 76 MBps). The 70D is around 10 MBps. Should base my numbers on that for a start.

Mike Kujbida · July 8th, 2015, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Benda

With my new find, I think I may try rendering the mpg from Vegas as best quality and full 8 bit, like Architect wants, then let Architect do the conversion down to whatever bit rate I need. Its going to do it anyway, why not let it.

Robert, DVD creators on this and other Vegas forums who are much smarter than me always say to do your encoding from Vegas instead of letting DVDA do it for you.
Letting DVDA do it for you means that it does what it "thinks" is best, not necessarily what is best. I always do my my encoding directly from Vegas as I have complete control over the finished product.

Quote:

I may start doing a bit of math for my Vegas template, make sure I'm doing as close to loss less for my long term storage as possible. Right now, I pass the clients their DVDs, then on USB they get mp4s and a VOB to make more DVDs if they want. For me, I'm storing mp4s and mpgs, but maybe that should be AVI to avoid loss.

The best long term storage is to keep the source footage and all your project files, graphics, music, etc. in one master folder on an external drive. Hard drives are so cheap these days that doing that is a very good method of backing up. A lot of users recommend having a second duplicate backup stored off site in case of fire, theft, etc. Only you can make that call but it is a good idea for anything critical.
Remember to exercise the externals at least once every 6 months (plug them in, power them up and try reading a few files) as hard drives have been known to go bad over time.

Robert Benda · July 8th, 2015, 10:22 AM

My weddings each run 200-400 GB. I know hard drives are cheap, but that's 2 new drives a year, just for that privilege (since I double backup everything). Mostly, I just don't want to store that much long term. I currently have 4 large drives and usually keep original files for about 2 years. After that, when the space is needed for the 3rd wedding season, I clear them out and only have the final project files. My contract only promises 6 months of storage of the originals for them.

As for the Vegas/Architect bit, I've always done the work in Vegas and plan to... except for this ridiculous Catholic wedding with too much footage. I'm going to see what happens with the better Vegas render (8 bit) and then let Architect, who is redoing the file away, bring it down to the smaller file size.

This is the first project in... I don't know, a couple of years, where this has been an issue. I'm hoping it doesn't come up more than once a year, that's for sure. Glad I found that option in Architect, though.

July 6th, 2015, 09:57 PM	#16
Jack Smith Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: ontario Posts: 445	Re: Architect problem... claims project is more GB than it is I found that sometimes it did over estimate the size, so I would prepare the disk without burning and if it came in under max size burn it. If oversize decide how much over eg. 10% then rerender at 15% lower bitrate.

July 7th, 2015, 04:14 AM	#17
Graham Bernard Old Boot Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London UK Posts: 3,633	Re: Architect problem... claims project is more GB than it is I don't know if this has been raised in this thread, but along with BitRate Calc I also use BitRateViewer. This free utility gives an excellent graphical representational Graph of the whole file. This shows me the PEAKS and TROUGHS of the rates varying. On more than one occasion I have been able to pinpoint a "rogue" peak that was scrambling/cluging-up my otherwise perfect DVD. BitRate Viewer: Bitrate Viewer - Main Page Cheers Grazie

July 7th, 2015, 12:30 PM	#18
Mike Kujbida Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Windsor, ON Canada Posts: 2,770	Re: Architect problem... claims project is more GB than it is Robert, Don's recommendation is the way I do it if I have multiple files to create for a DVD. I use the bitrate calculator found at http://www.johncline.com/bitcalc110.zip It's never let me down and I find it to be a great tool. I do make a few changes to it when it first comes up as indicated in the screen shots below. I change the default safety margin from 1% to 5%. I click the Settings box and, on the screen that comes up, click 1 kilobit = 1024 bits. In that same window, I set the Audio encoding type and bitrate option to 192 kB/S as that's the DVDa standard. If you prefer to use a higher value, adjust accordingly. FYI, I used it set to 2 hours (for your video) and got the following numbers (see screen shot below) Attached Thumbnails

July 7th, 2015, 09:34 PM	#19
Robert Benda Trustee Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Crookston, MN Posts: 1,353	Re: Architect problem... claims project is more GB than it is OK, I found it, I think. Not only do I have to be more careful about EXACTLY which Architect codec I use, (DVD Architect 24p NTSC Widescreen video stream), more importantly In Architect's properties (under File) is the option for... bit rate. Even when I'm using the correct bit rate in Vegas, when I put the files into Architect, its recalculating all of it at 8 bit instead of whatever I rendered the mpg files at. That means my 5 or 6 Mbps files end up as 8 Mbps, except, of course, they're not really. That's why Architect thinks my 9 gigs of files is 12 or 13.

July 8th, 2015, 07:01 AM	#20
Mike Kujbida Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Windsor, ON Canada Posts: 2,770	Re: Architect problem... claims project is more GB than it is Welcome to the black art that is DVD encoding :) Here are two screen shots from the render settings panel using your two hour timeline for the bitrate I recommended in my earlier post. Make sure to choose the 2-pass option as this will maximize your final quality. It will take longer but the results will be worth it. I always set my Video Quality slider to it's highest setting. On the Project tab (this is in Pro 12), I set the Video rendering Quality option to Best. Once again this will make for a longer render but the final quality, especially still images, will benefit from it. You can save this as a preset if you know you'll have similar length projects in the future. Attached Thumbnails

July 8th, 2015, 08:20 AM	#21
Robert Benda Trustee Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Crookston, MN Posts: 1,353	Re: Architect problem... claims project is more GB than it is Thanks, Mike, that is what I've been using. With my new find, I think I may try rendering the mpg from Vegas as best quality and full 8 bit, like Architect wants, then let Architect do the conversion down to whatever bit rate I need. Its going to do it anyway, why not let it. I may start doing a bit of math for my Vegas template, make sure I'm doing as close to loss less for my long term storage as possible. Right now, I pass the clients their DVDs, then on USB they get mp4s and a VOB to make more DVDs if they want. For me, I'm storing mp4s and mpgs, but maybe that should be AVI to avoid loss. I am shooting on a 5d Mark ii and 70Ds. The 5d is under 6 MBps, I believe (though Magic Lantern let's you bump that way up to 76 MBps). The 70D is around 10 MBps. Should base my numbers on that for a start.

July 8th, 2015, 10:22 AM	#23
Robert Benda Trustee Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Crookston, MN Posts: 1,353	Re: Architect problem... claims project is more GB than it is My weddings each run 200-400 GB. I know hard drives are cheap, but that's 2 new drives a year, just for that privilege (since I double backup everything). Mostly, I just don't want to store that much long term. I currently have 4 large drives and usually keep original files for about 2 years. After that, when the space is needed for the 3rd wedding season, I clear them out and only have the final project files. My contract only promises 6 months of storage of the originals for them. As for the Vegas/Architect bit, I've always done the work in Vegas and plan to... except for this ridiculous Catholic wedding with too much footage. I'm going to see what happens with the better Vegas render (8 bit) and then let Architect, who is redoing the file away, bring it down to the smaller file size. This is the first project in... I don't know, a couple of years, where this has been an issue. I'm hoping it doesn't come up more than once a year, that's for sure. Glad I found that option in Architect, though.