Getting ready for 4k in Vegas?

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Due to my neck spine illness, I'm about to sell all my HD shooting rig and probably buy myself the AX100 camera for those hobby shooting and edits of entry-level 4k in Vegas Pro 13. My problem though is I have an LGA1155 based system (with i7 4600K), which cannot accept another card capable of full HDMI 2.0 4k output to one of those cheap QHDTVs. I was thinking of replacing my current fermi GTX 580 card (which is great as Vegas accelerator) with one of those AMD R9 ones, but...

I read all websites with specs for the R9 output - and while they say about HDMI "Quad HD, deep color" I'm afraid this is just going to be 4k@30 Hz (or 24Hz) only which is not enough for me (DP 1.2. provides full UHD@60 HZ and 30 bit color - 10 bit per channels, I guess). So, the first of my questions to you guys is:

- is the R9 HDMI 2.0 (which also provide full UHD@60Hz)
- or is the HDMI 1.4a, and you suggest using DP 1.2. with one of those DP->HDMI converters which are mixed opinions as far as drinking QHDTVs is concerned?

Reaching further in my plans - when I manage to sell all my HD shooting rig I can't use any more due to spine problems - I'll be able to upgrade my system. So I'd like to seek your advise guys whether it makes sense to go all they way for a 2011-3 based system, 8-core i7 and DDR4 RAM, or spend half of that on the Xeon 12-core CPU on 2011 mobo (DDR 3 RAM I'd have from my current system)?

I've always been buying only the best stuff, but with my current situation it's not that easy anymore - and I'd like to go somewhat future proof, as well. So, here comes the second question: what kind of 4K editing would the 8-core i7-5960X be enough for, and - on the other hand - how far I could stretch the 12-core Xeon on the 2011 platform? For instance, would it still be good for XAVC 420 10 bit in a few years time?

Of course both would be accelerated with some nice R9 AMD GPU.

Piotr

PS Let me put it this way: what will Vegas like more for previewing speed (MUCH more important to me than rendering speed): 8 cores @ 3.0 GHz in the latest & greatest 2011-3 X99 mobo, or 12 cores at 2.5 GHz in the previous generation system?

[Kim Olsson]

Well, Iam not the most correct person to answer your question. I have never owned that kind of high end equipment... But in my testing it's all about the core clock speed. Of course a 1 or 2 core CPU would not last long against a 4,6 or 8 core CPU, I just dont think Vegas Pro is able to utilize all the cores like one could imagine when it comes to preview speed... Hell, Vegas Pro still doesnt support newer nVidia GPU's. The highest nVidia GPU supported is the 5xx series (2010), and still no hint at all that the company is even starting to make the 6 or 7 series cards to its "supported list"...

I bought a GTX780Ti when it came, and "hoped" it would be better as it has 2880 cuda cores against GTX580 which has 512 cuda cores...
Well, It works great when GPU acccelerating FX like MB look, Film Convert Pro, Vegas FX like CC and so on. Can't compare to the GTX580 because I never owed it.

Anyway, I use a "old!" Intel CPU 3770k, clocked to 4.6GHz. That sure will accelerate the timeline performance (editing workflow). And of course it will also render insane. You cant be "good" at one and "slow" at the other. They are in tandem (rendering & previewing speed).

I never owned a Xenon nor a 12-core CPU, but is it possible to overclock that CPU? A coreclock at 2.5GHz sounds extremly low at todays standard.. Of course that would really be a great rendering farm!! =)

Im positive the Intel Core i7 Extreme 5960X 3,0GHz with some OC will be the best Vegas Pro can use today.

When you say:
-"what kind of 4K editing would the 8-core i7-5960X be enough for"

That would be a really vague question. Could you please define your question. Because I am not really sure what you meant by that...

Iam editing 4K today from my Panasonic GH4. When working in the timeline with several video tracks, my preview speed is in realtime...
When I put another video on top and lower the opacity, still previewing in realtime. When put third video track on top of that, it chokes to half the frame rates...
When adding a couple of FX on the video's like some CC and so on, still playing in realtime when having a clip on top with lowered opacity... Thats when GPU accelerating doing its job.. Especially because Sony have alot of FX which is GPU accelerated. Not all is accelerated by the GPU so you know...

When using alot of third party plugin or FX that will not use the GPU for preview speed, I right click on the videoclip in "project media" and press "create video proxy". That will create a 720p with lesser bitrate. I believe Vegas Pro also have a function to create all imported files to proxy files if you want to. You can also do it manually with other decoder apps if you want. Vegas will use those proxy files when editing but when you render at the end, ofcourse Vegas will use the original files... So de degrade of picture quality will only occur when editing. You can alternative to view proxy video or original by choosing "good" or "best" i think, dont remember...

You really dont "need" a CPU which cost £1000 just to be able to edit with decent preview speed. You can buy my "old" CPU today used for let say about £120. And one promise I can give you, is that the 8-core i7-5960X won't perform 10x in preview speed, I can even promise it won't even be twice (2x) as fast as the 3770k 4.6GHz.
Maybe 20-40% ?

My take:
If your goal is to create a rendering farm, go with the Xenon 12-core. Think it would get thermal problems raising the stock clock...
If you want a great workflow and be able to scrub, play and edit in fastest possible way, without dropping frames, choose a CPU which can overcome at least 4GHz coreclock...
I think the 8-core i7-5960X would be the fastest CPU "today" for previewing speed in Sony Vegas, but I think it is much money for little increase against the 3770k, 4790k and so on...

Remember to spread your media to seperate disks and dont use cheaper slower one. That is something which also will affect preview speed.

Multicam editing can also be a hassle. Think Vegas trying to read 4 or several video files from same harddrive at the same time. Try preview that in realtime. This is only time I can think that SSD's can be used of for video editing. A mechanical HD will try to spin and go back and forth with its arm, trying to keep up. Maybe spreaing out the videoclips on different HD's? Just a thought..!

By the way, is this your hobby or is this your work?
Sorry for my extremley long answer, but I havent had this much time for a long time sitting down and read about my hobby, so I took my time.. =D

/Happy editing.

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Hi Kim,

First of all - thank you for the wisdom I found in your answer; in fact - after some looking around and consideration - I decided to keep my system for now, and try to prove myself I'm good enough a filmmaker to produce little masterpieces like your own, posted and praised high in another thread! Congratulations on the movie; I think that being an engineer, I've always thought too much about the gear than about the story for my shorts.

Yes - right now I'm just a hobbyist, as a series of unsuccessful surgeries on my neck spine prevents me to carry my HD rig around. But I used to be a "pro" - just meaning I actually was (and still am) selling my DVDs and BDs with multicamera coverages of the annual classical music festival me and my brother-in-law hold at the beautiful premises of the Royal Castle of Wawel, Krakow. So I used to be the DP with a small crew of camera operators and a great sound engineer, and operated one of (usually) up to 8 HD cameras, and then edited it quite successfully as MC projects in Vegas Pro...

But now I'm forced to sell all this hardware, and - while still planning to edit what our camera crew hands over to me after each edition of the event. For myself, I'm planning to buy s small, consumer 4k camera - the AX100 - simply because I've always been a Sony guy :) But also because I think it's a capable little toy.... And of course shoot some "beauty shots" with it for my own pleasure, so my physical disability doesn't interfere...

But as to what I'm planning to shoot, which stories to tell, and editing style to adopt - well, I'm still researching inside my soul and heart. I only wish one day I'll be able to produce short films similar in atmosphere and expression to your film you posted on YT - and I'm sure this can be done on my current Vegas computer.

Thanks again

Piotr

[Kim Olsson]

Alright, that will save you some hard earned money anyway! =)
By the way, you never told me your current computer system like CPU and so on...

Hope your recovery on your neck will improve as time goes...

Think your doing the right choice. Buying that kind of high-end computer editing system for personal use, would only be justified if money wasent an object for you. When I went from my old AMD Athlon64 2600+ to my first dual CPU - Intel Core2Duo 2.67GHz, that was an upgrade I could feel. CPU score on my old AMD has 374points, while my current 3770k has 9617points (standard core clock). The 4930k has 13102points. This point system is from PassMark Software - CPU Benchmark Charts.

I have never tested a handycam before, like the Sony AX100. I went directly from my Canon 60D to Panasonic GH4. Before that, I had a Panasonic DMC-FZ7, but the video quality on that one, is horrible...
Anyway, importing videoclips from Sony handycam to Sony Vegas timeline cant be faulty?
Vegas should be able to handle their own codec's in their own video production suite, really good.

By the way, Iam really glad you liked my film.

Good luck with your film, If you record/film what you enjoy seeing/be around at, you will produce a great film. All you have to do, is to recapture the moments. And you have it all, inside a memory card =D.

/Kim

[Jeff Harper]

Piotr, clock speed is what determines preview during editing, number of cores is largely irrelevent, as far as I know. Number of cores and clock speed together affect render speed.

I have a 3930K overclocked to 3.8 and it handles multiple camera editing of 2 lines of 4K plus two lines of 1080i (four cameras total). It is not super great but I can manage pretty well.

If you are editing a single line of video, not multiple cameras, something as fast as mine or faster would be more than enough for you. Good luck!

There is a inexpensive, popular processor out there, forget which one. It overclocks really well and is great for preview/editing. You don't need a lot of cores, you want the highest clock speed you can get. If you can afford both, so much the better.