Handling 1080i footage for DVD at DVinfo.net

Jeff Harper · November 13th, 2013, 04:26 PM

I'm producing my first DVD shot in 1080i in a long time and I'm and uncertain how to render, mainly regarding upper and lower fields. I've been shooting in 24p mostly for two years so this is somewhat new territory for me.

The footage is UFF of course. How will a DVD perform when rendered and burned onto a DVD when it's UFF. Is it perfectly fine?

I am aware that I do not want to reverse telecine, but I was under the impression DVDs should be LFF.

Mike Kujbida · November 13th, 2013, 05:25 PM

Jeff, most of what I've been shooting lately is at 1080i and I make a lot of DVDs from that material.
I just drop it on the timeline, choose the appropriate DVD template (most often it's widescreen) and hit render.
Vegas has no problems with the footage.

Chris Harding · November 13th, 2013, 05:49 PM

When you are edited with interlaced stuff Jeff, don't forget to make sure your de-interlace is set correctly ...especially if you have been working with progressive stuff previously.

All my Realty shoots are done in 1080i and rendered to an MPEG2 file for the DVD. Most player handle progressive footage now but I still render my MPEG2's interlaced so it will play on any player even Grandma's one!

Chris

Jeff Harper · November 13th, 2013, 06:02 PM

Thanks guys. Vegas does not seem to have a render template for DVD with upper field first, which is the source of my concern.

I selected DVDA widescreen template and changed field order from LFF to UFF. I just rendered it out so after I design the menu I can test to see how it looks.

Robert Benda · November 13th, 2013, 06:50 PM

Jeff, I believe you have to click on options to adjust the standard template and you'll see your deinterlace options.

Jeff Harper · November 13th, 2013, 07:03 PM

thanks Robert, I am familiar with the options, but I thought DVDs were supposed to be LFF. No one has specifically addressed this point (unless I missed it :)

Jeff Harper · November 13th, 2013, 07:27 PM

I see interlacing on my computer monitor when playing back in DVDA. Is this normal, or do I have a problem?

Mike Kujbida · November 13th, 2013, 07:31 PM

Jeff, I knew I had asked this question on the Sony Vegas forum some time ago and here are a few of the responses I got.

From the Pro 11 ReadMe file:
Changed the default field order for MainConcept MPEG-2 NTSC DVD templates to upper first (which is more common and matches more source media).

In SD it is always better to match the field order to your source material. Vegas is one of the few NLEs that will actually correctly render to UFF or LFF regardless of source material, but there is a slight quality tradeoff when changing field order.

In Vegas Properties, there is a deinterlace setting. If you set this to none and render SD to a different field order than the original, then it does get quite nasty. If you set it to Blend or Interpolate, it will usually give satisfactory results. The best plan is to keep it the same.
But when converting from HD to SD, it is a whole different set of rules. First off, you are discarding lines of video and interpolating to a lower resolution. At this point, you can determine which field you want to be first and your results will probably be the same. What is important in HD to SD is the deinterlacer itself. I have been happy with the results obtained by Vegas, but others have found other programs or procedures that they feel do a better job. Either way, when going from HD to SD, you need some type of deinterlacing set for best results, normally interpolation gives the best.

Jeff Harper · November 13th, 2013, 07:34 PM

Darn, I will have to re render everything, I did not use Interpolate and it looks like crap on my monitor.

I do appreciate it much Mike I'll know what to do from now on. I guess it's another late night.

Mike Kujbida · November 13th, 2013, 07:40 PM

No problem Jeff. Always glad to help.
p.s. Dave says thank you very much for Pro12. He's looking forward to diving into it.

Jeff Harper · November 13th, 2013, 07:40 PM

As the full wedding re-renders, I'm watching in the preview window and the interlacing artifacts seem lessened than before, but I'll have to actually see it to know for sure, of course. I do trust your advice Mike, as you can tell, so I'm going with it!

Jeff Harper · November 13th, 2013, 07:42 PM

Mike I forgot about Dave and that deal. Thanks so much again! I'm really glad he received it. Postal service told me it would take about 8 days or something for it to get there.

Jeff Harper · November 13th, 2013, 09:19 PM

Well, the interlacing artifacts seem worse, or at least the same as before. I kind of feel it was a waste of time to re-render, but at least I tried it.

I think I've seen this discussed before now that I think about it, and I seem to recall maybe there are some that feel one way is better than the other, is that correct? Not happy at all with 1080i to 480i. I may go back to shooting 24p, this sucks. It's crisper with interlaced, but only until motion brings out the artifacts and then it just looks like crap.

Mark Williams · November 13th, 2013, 10:57 PM

Jeff, I use a different editing system than you but I have no problem getting beautiful DVDs from 1080i footage. Of course this was after wasting much time experimenting with various encoders. One of the big image quality problems to deal with is downscaling from 1080i to 480i. This is where most low cost encoders fail to produce a decent image. After trying various encoders I found one that works best for me.

Here is my workflow. Export a lossless .avi file from your 1080i timeline (I am on Edius). Bring it into TMPGEnc encoder. I use TMPGEnc 4.0 Express that has now been updated to Video Mastering Works 5.
You can download a trial copy if you desire. Use the DVD encoding template and let it do the work. My settings for a duplicated DVD-R is in the attached screenshot. I normally do replicated DVD projects and the only difference is I raise the video bitrate from 7900 to 8500 and the audio on top of that for the master. After 5,000 DVDs sold not one complaint.

Jeff Harper · November 13th, 2013, 11:27 PM

Mark, many thanks for kindly posting your detailed workflow, including your settings. I have read nothing but good things about TMPGEncoder.

Happily I can report that my DVD lnow ooks very nice. I was previously judging results by playing back in DVDA, which I can now see is not the way to judge interlaced video.

On my 72" screen it looks very very good. It does seem to be agreed upon by many that interpolate is the way to go, as Mike suggested, but apparently some Vegas users use the Blend option instead. I will use the blend option next DVD for the first draft and watch it on my TV first rather than judge it by my PC monitor.

I've been editing since 5:30 am and am done for the day. 19 hours is long enough. I deeply appreciate everyone's help this evening.

November 13th, 2013, 04:26 PM	#1
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Handling 1080i footage for DVD I'm producing my first DVD shot in 1080i in a long time and I'm and uncertain how to render, mainly regarding upper and lower fields. I've been shooting in 24p mostly for two years so this is somewhat new territory for me. The footage is UFF of course. How will a DVD perform when rendered and burned onto a DVD when it's UFF. Is it perfectly fine? I am aware that I do not want to reverse telecine, but I was under the impression DVDs should be LFF.

November 13th, 2013, 05:25 PM	#2
Mike Kujbida Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Windsor, ON Canada Posts: 2,770	Re: Handling 1080i footage for DVD Jeff, most of what I've been shooting lately is at 1080i and I make a lot of DVDs from that material. I just drop it on the timeline, choose the appropriate DVD template (most often it's widescreen) and hit render. Vegas has no problems with the footage.

November 13th, 2013, 05:49 PM	#3
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Handling 1080i footage for DVD When you are edited with interlaced stuff Jeff, don't forget to make sure your de-interlace is set correctly ...especially if you have been working with progressive stuff previously. All my Realty shoots are done in 1080i and rendered to an MPEG2 file for the DVD. Most player handle progressive footage now but I still render my MPEG2's interlaced so it will play on any player even Grandma's one! Chris

November 13th, 2013, 06:02 PM	#4
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Handling 1080i footage for DVD Thanks guys. Vegas does not seem to have a render template for DVD with upper field first, which is the source of my concern. I selected DVDA widescreen template and changed field order from LFF to UFF. I just rendered it out so after I design the menu I can test to see how it looks.

November 13th, 2013, 06:50 PM	#5
Robert Benda Trustee Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Crookston, MN Posts: 1,353	Re: Handling 1080i footage for DVD Jeff, I believe you have to click on options to adjust the standard template and you'll see your deinterlace options.

November 13th, 2013, 07:03 PM	#6
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Handling 1080i footage for DVD thanks Robert, I am familiar with the options, but I thought DVDs were supposed to be LFF. No one has specifically addressed this point (unless I missed it :)

November 13th, 2013, 07:27 PM	#7
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Handling 1080i footage for DVD I see interlacing on my computer monitor when playing back in DVDA. Is this normal, or do I have a problem?

November 13th, 2013, 07:31 PM	#8
Mike Kujbida Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Windsor, ON Canada Posts: 2,770	Re: Handling 1080i footage for DVD Jeff, I knew I had asked this question on the Sony Vegas forum some time ago and here are a few of the responses I got. From the Pro 11 ReadMe file: Changed the default field order for MainConcept MPEG-2 NTSC DVD templates to upper first (which is more common and matches more source media). In SD it is always better to match the field order to your source material. Vegas is one of the few NLEs that will actually correctly render to UFF or LFF regardless of source material, but there is a slight quality tradeoff when changing field order. In Vegas Properties, there is a deinterlace setting. If you set this to none and render SD to a different field order than the original, then it does get quite nasty. If you set it to Blend or Interpolate, it will usually give satisfactory results. The best plan is to keep it the same. But when converting from HD to SD, it is a whole different set of rules. First off, you are discarding lines of video and interpolating to a lower resolution. At this point, you can determine which field you want to be first and your results will probably be the same. What is important in HD to SD is the deinterlacer itself. I have been happy with the results obtained by Vegas, but others have found other programs or procedures that they feel do a better job. Either way, when going from HD to SD, you need some type of deinterlacing set for best results, normally interpolation gives the best.

November 13th, 2013, 07:34 PM	#9
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Handling 1080i footage for DVD Darn, I will have to re render everything, I did not use Interpolate and it looks like crap on my monitor. I do appreciate it much Mike I'll know what to do from now on. I guess it's another late night.

November 13th, 2013, 07:40 PM	#10
Mike Kujbida Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Windsor, ON Canada Posts: 2,770	Re: Handling 1080i footage for DVD No problem Jeff. Always glad to help. p.s. Dave says thank you very much for Pro12. He's looking forward to diving into it.

November 13th, 2013, 07:42 PM	#12
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Handling 1080i footage for DVD Mike I forgot about Dave and that deal. Thanks so much again! I'm really glad he received it. Postal service told me it would take about 8 days or something for it to get there.

November 13th, 2013, 09:19 PM	#13
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Handling 1080i footage for DVD Well, the interlacing artifacts seem worse, or at least the same as before. I kind of feel it was a waste of time to re-render, but at least I tried it. I think I've seen this discussed before now that I think about it, and I seem to recall maybe there are some that feel one way is better than the other, is that correct? Not happy at all with 1080i to 480i. I may go back to shooting 24p, this sucks. It's crisper with interlaced, but only until motion brings out the artifacts and then it just looks like crap.

November 13th, 2013, 10:57 PM	#14
Mark Williams Trustee Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Deep South, U.S. Posts: 1,526	Re: Handling 1080i footage for DVD Jeff, I use a different editing system than you but I have no problem getting beautiful DVDs from 1080i footage. Of course this was after wasting much time experimenting with various encoders. One of the big image quality problems to deal with is downscaling from 1080i to 480i. This is where most low cost encoders fail to produce a decent image. After trying various encoders I found one that works best for me. Here is my workflow. Export a lossless .avi file from your 1080i timeline (I am on Edius). Bring it into TMPGEnc encoder. I use TMPGEnc 4.0 Express that has now been updated to Video Mastering Works 5. You can download a trial copy if you desire. Use the DVD encoding template and let it do the work. My settings for a duplicated DVD-R is in the attached screenshot. I normally do replicated DVD projects and the only difference is I raise the video bitrate from 7900 to 8500 and the audio on top of that for the master. After 5,000 DVDs sold not one complaint. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Mark videos: http://vimeo.com/channels/3523 Stock: http://www.pond5.com/artist/mark29

November 13th, 2013, 11:27 PM	#15
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Handling 1080i footage for DVD Mark, many thanks for kindly posting your detailed workflow, including your settings. I have read nothing but good things about TMPGEncoder. Happily I can report that my DVD lnow ooks very nice. I was previously judging results by playing back in DVDA, which I can now see is not the way to judge interlaced video. On my 72" screen it looks very very good. It does seem to be agreed upon by many that interpolate is the way to go, as Mike suggested, but apparently some Vegas users use the Blend option instead. I will use the blend option next DVD for the first draft and watch it on my TV first rather than judge it by my PC monitor. I've been editing since 5:30 am and am done for the day. 19 hours is long enough. I deeply appreciate everyone's help this evening.