Gearshift and Vegas HDV Questions

[Robert Kirkpatrick]

Hi. I'm new to this whole HDV thing, so please excuse the elementary questions. I know that standard m2t takes up about 13gb/hour of footage. However, if I'm hoping to use Gearshift and converting to an easy DV proxy since I only have a 2.6 Ghz system. My hope is to convert 1080 60i to 1080 24p, but use a dv proxy to edit. How much harddrive space should I allocate for that? And is it okay to use USB 2.0 external drives for that? Or do they need to be firewire drives?

Also, on a side note, I run Vegas 6 using Windows 2000 -- I heard there was a driver issue trying to get the Sony HDV cams to be read by 2000. Is this true?

Again, sorry for all the questions. There's a lot of HDV info out there, but some of it is so contradictory or high-level that the more I read, the more confused I get.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

First...
Win2K will see the cam, but it's a number of clicks to get it to do so.

As far as the proxies, you'd need to allocate the same amount of space for the DV proxies as the HDV files use, approximately. DV is the same data rate as 1080 HDV. You get a little bit of file size shaved off for 24p, and GearShift can convert it to a DV 24p widescreen with correct color space compensation.

Questions are welcome, never hesitate to ask them.

[Shawn Redford]

Instead of using DV proxies, can Gearshift create Cineform proxies (using the Cineform that comes with Vegas), and then let you switch to m2t files for the final render?

I'm just thinking that this would provide the highest quality in the end (though I am not certain about how this would work for color correction - you'd probably still have to color correct the m2t directly), but it just strikes me that Gearshift could allow the built-in Cineform to have more functionality.

I realize that it would take more hard drive space than DV proxies, but it seems that this would allow higher-end computers (like 3Mhz P4s and up) to work in HDV the entire time if the users wanted to go through this workflow, but with the added benefit of returning to m2t in the end.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by Shawn Redford

Instead of using DV proxies, can Gearshift create Cineform proxies (using the Cineform that comes with Vegas), and then let you switch to m2t files for the final render?

I'm just thinking that this would provide the highest quality in the end (though I am not certain about how this would work for color correction - you'd probably still have to color correct the m2t directly), but it just strikes me that Gearshift could allow the built-in Cineform to have more functionality.

I realize that it would take more hard drive space than DV proxies, but it seems that this would allow higher-end computers (like 3Mhz P4s and up) to work in HDV the entire time if the users wanted to go through this workflow, but with the added benefit of returning to m2t in the end.

yes, GearShift can render to the CineForm codec from either the timeline, bins, or explorer. It can also generate the proxies, AND a 4:2:2 YUV file if you'll be doing HDCAM.
CineForm does use more HDD space than proxies, but it's a great editing experience IF you have a 3.2 or faster.

[Laurence Kingston]

One thing to be aware of is that Cineform avi files smartrender just like regular DV footage. In other words, any part of the video that hasn't been changed is just copied to the newly rendered file. This has two advantages: speed and quality. It's fast because only transitions and parts with filters applied are rerendered. It's high quality because most of your renders are exactly the same as the original.

The point of this is that I would use the Cineform codec stuff for rendering rather than the original M2T files. In either case you are looking at at least one generation of rerendering: M2T to M2T means that the whole thing is rerendered; Cineform to Cineform means that you have one generation at the beginning, and only generations beyond that at points where transitions or filters are applied.

In addition to this, Cineform is designed for rerenders and looks good quite a few generations later. Mpeg is not.

[Ron Evans]

Laurence my experience is somewhat different. I have cropped a 4x3 SD DV image from m2t, cineform and Canopus HQ. The m2t ouput is by far the best, it is considerably sharper. In this case there is just one reencode. For repeated encodes you are correct that Cineform and the Canopus codecs stand up much better than repeated mpeg re-encodes. But in the case of cineform and the Canopus HQ they still have to be encoded again to go back out to the camera as HDV. FOr me the main advantage of the intermediates is smooth speed in editing but there is the disadvantage on extra space on the hard drive and the time to encode and re-encode for export anyway. In both the cases I tried I used the standard file size and have not tried the large file size options which may yield better results.

Ron Evans

[Laurence Kingston]

Well cropping the Cineform footage makes it rerender so in that case using Cineform would give you an extra generation.

I use the ConnectHD utility to convert the footage, and Cineform says that because of the mpeg decoder that they use, this generates a slightly higher quality image. This conflicts with other statements I've read saying that there is no difference in quality between the ConnectHD and a direct Vegas Cineform render. As far as I can see they look the same, but I have a pretty modest LCD screen for monitoring so I really can't say. Any difference must be quite subtle, but none-the-less might be important when comparing M2T to Cineform renders.

The one thing that does make a difference that you can see even on the cheap LCD monitor is rendering direct to MPEG 2 instead of DV when you are downrezzing to SD. The colors seem much brighter with a direct DVD compatible MPEG render.

[Ron Evans]

The test I did was from a musical theatre show and from the full stage camera. I was wanting to see if I could create a multicam shoot from just one HDV camera by cropping and panning and zooming from the one file. I used both the m2t file, this file encoded by HDconnect and this file encoded by Canopus PCE to the HQ format. I then used Vegas 6, Premiere Pro 1.5.1 and EDius PRo3 to see how easy it was to do this task as well as the final quality. Output choices were to DV in all cases as well as to create an MPEG2 file for DVD creation in DVDLab Pro. The clear winner was a TMGenc EXpress convert from the Vegas 6 m2t conversion to DV. THe finished DVD had less noise and was sharper. However the process was very lengthy compared to my usual use for EDius PRo3 with my DVRaptoRT2 which is realtime to DV. To be honest unless I want the HDV output I will convert to DV in camera and edit as normal. When work flow is MUCH faster and HD distributable output is available I will change. Currently I use my FX1 in HDV for family events and in DV mode for projects.

Ron Evans

[Mark Bryant]

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

First...
Win2K will see the cam, but it's a number of clicks to get it to do so.

As far as the proxies, you'd need to allocate the same amount of space for the DV proxies as the HDV files use, approximately. DV is the same data rate as 1080 HDV. You get a little bit of file size shaved off for 24p, and GearShift can convert it to a DV 24p widescreen with correct color space compensation.

Questions are welcome, never hesitate to ask them.

Spot, I've got my new HC1 and run Windows 2K. I've searched this forum and the Sony Vegas forum. I've configured Vegas to use the internal capture app. I've double checked the HC1 is in HDV mode. I've seen posts about how you have to manually install the drivers in XP if you don't have SP2, but those instructions don't apply to Win 2K. I've searched the Microsoft Windows 2000 support site and can't find anything there either. What are the "clicks" I need to do to get Windows to see the cam?

When the cam is on, in Device Manager, Imaging devices I can see "Microsoft DV Camera and VCR". But no HDV device. Right clicking in Imaging Devices doesn't let me install a new driver.

If I turn on the HDV-DV downsample mode in the camera and switch back to the external app, it recognizes it as a DV camera... but even this doesn't work correctly, the video I capture is all "garbled". So I can't even edit in DV mode, though at least Windows sees the camera...

Help!

Mark

[Mark Bryant]

I've got an answer to this from research and another forum...
No support for HDV 1394 capture with Windows 2000. I need to install Windows XP SP2.

Mark

[Edward Troxel]

WinXP SP2 definitely makes the driver installation easier. It will also work fine with SP1 but you have to manually locate and install the driver. You might also check out this thread - specifically the posts by "ForumAdmin".

http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/for...ssageID=391928

The indication is that it *can* work with Win2k if you get the proper driver installed but is recommended that you use XP SP2

[Mark Bryant]

Edward,

Thanks for that link! I had searched that Vegas forum, but didn't manage to find that thread.

Yes it seems to indicate it may be possible to use Windows 2000 IF you can "get the drivers to load". But it never gets to the point where it explains how one can get the drivers for Windows 2000.

I have done some brief editing of HDV files with Windows 2000 (I downloaded some clips for this, before I got my HDV camera) and that seemed OK, but it is the drivers part where I am stuck. Windows 2000 can see the device, but only as a DV one.

I too have a support ticket in with Sony... I expect they will answer the same way... recommend XP SP2.
I think that is they way I am going to have to go.

[Yi Fong Yu]

just got gearshift, it kix ass!!!

i do have a question though. does the DV Proxy last through the editing session ONLY? what if you closed it vegas file, reopen it. will gearshift be able to swap the HD files back in place? if so, how? i've been l00king up&down the faq&tutorials. everything is the latest version Vegas 6c, Gearshift 1.5.1. i've already done a m2t->DV Proxy conversion, how do i swap DV Proxy->m2t back? i tried clicking on gearshift with the radio dial on the 1st option to swap DV Proxy with m2t back on timeline, but it gives me the warning "errors were found when replacing media", and then an error message, "no media files were replaced.". i've tried several different things. nothing was changed from the time i did the DV Proxy conversion and tried to swap it back with m2t.

anyone? i don't want a cineform avi file. i want *only* the DV Proxy and then i need to swap it back for m2t. anyone?

ok, here is what i am doing:

1. capturing m2t.
2. place m2t onto timeline in vegas 6.
3. click on gearshit.
4. click on timeline tab.
5. select entire timline w/swap media on timeline checked.
6. click on gearshift.
7. select swap out real w/DV proxy
8. click OK.

then i get that message. if i DON'T click on gearshift button initially, i can get the initial m2t->DV Proxy conversion to work. but when i try to DV Proxy->m2t doesn't work. i get the same error messages. is there a step by step spelled out way to do this? the tutorial is too vague.

[Mark Duckworth]

Hi Yi. I had the same problem. I posted the thread below. Basically DSE said they are working on it and that was about 2 months ago.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...rshift+problem

[Mark Bryant]

Yi Fong,

I can't tell you details of how it works, but it has a naming scheme it uses to map the files.
And yes, it can work even if you close Vegas and re-open it.

Looking at your steps:

1. capturing m2t.
2. place m2t onto timeline in vegas 6.
3. click on gearshit.
4. click on timeline tab.
5. select entire timline w/swap media on timeline checked.
6. click on gearshift.
7. select swap out real w/DV proxy
8. click OK.


In step 5, selecting "swap media" means as well as render the Proxy, do an immediate shift. So by doing this, when step 5 is complete you already have the DV proxy on the timeline. So in Step 7 when you tell it to swap out the "real" with the DV proxy, it will be confused.

What I do is I don't tick the swap media box. If you do that, then the manual shift in step 7 will work. Or you can leave the box ticked, but skip step 7.

I also always put the proxy media in the same directory as the m2t files, this isn't mandatory but it seems less can go wrong (Gearshift will be sure to find the files).

Mark