Audio / Audio Rendering Questions at DVinfo.net

Brad Ridgeway · August 14th, 2013, 11:39 AM

I am working on a project in Vegas Pro 10. I have two sets of video/audio tracks on my timeline - each from separate Sony Handycams with Sony AVCHD footage which I believe have Dolby 5.1 sound.

I am cutting between cameras for the video, but I am leaving both audio tracks in their entirety because I think it "sounds better" when played through my PC with both tracks overlaid versus each individual track on its own.

The immediate issue I am encountering is that while the sound level seems good during editing on the PC through Vegas, the volume is VERY loud when the project is completed to DVD and played back on a television through a DVD or Blu-Ray player. I have my stereo set at "normal" volume, but have to turn it way down when playing my created DVDs.

Here is my workflow... Render an intermediate Cineform AVI out of Vegas. Use TMPGEnc to encode to MPEG-2 DVD format with separate audio (AC3) and video files. Author the DVD in DVD Architect Pro using the encoded files and then create the DVD.

I'm thinking the problem has something to do with the two audio tracks overlaid on the timeline but also think it could be somewhere in the rendering or encoding processes. The volume levels are set at 0dB for both audio tracks on the timeline.

Any ideas?

Also, does anyone know if my audio is still in Dolby 5.1 on the DVD after this workflow? If there are certain settings I should be selecting during render, please let me know what they are as I'm not sure about the audio side of things.

Juris Lielpeteris · August 14th, 2013, 12:22 PM

http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/A...tandards.P.pdf
See page 7.

Jeff Harper · August 14th, 2013, 02:59 PM

Read Juris' link when you can, and in the meantime try adjusting your ac3 settings to the below settings. Should do the trick for you. This is what I was taught here and it works pretty well for me.

Audio Service > Dialog Normalization = -27dB
Pre-processing > Line Mode Profile = None
Pre-processing > RF Mode = None

Chris Hewitt · August 14th, 2013, 03:01 PM

Hi Brad...could be that you have those two audio tracks and together, they are outputing a fair amount of energy to push the meters up. See what the meters do when you just have one audio track playing.
You could also use some cutting of low end eq to banish some of the lower frequencies...that should lower things a bit. Also using a compressor and limiter will help with the limiter at the end of the chain.

Can you tell me why you render the video twice before it reaches DVD Architect?
What is the advantage over just rendering to mpeg in Vegas. I've noticed a fee people say they do that and I would like to know if that is a better way.

Jeff Harper · August 14th, 2013, 03:05 PM

Chris makes a good point, two tracks will increase the volume. I do it all the time, because different cams pick up different things and they often blend well, one having more bass then the other, and the other having better treble pickup, etc.

Lower to 3/4 or halfway or so on each track if you're using both. Use the above recommended settings, and you'll be fine.

Don Bloom · August 14th, 2013, 03:41 PM

In the Track Headers you can Right Click on the PAN Slider and there is a mini menu there. It reads something like ADD Channels (0 db center) Balance (0db center) Balance (-3db center) Balance (-6db center) Constant Power and Film. People forget to change that to something other than ADD channels.
That can really make getting levels correct in the first place and then if you set your AC3 render to what Jeff said (I have it as a Preset...makes life easier) you should be fine.

Brad Ridgeway · August 14th, 2013, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hewitt

Can you tell me why you render the video twice before it reaches DVD Architect?
What is the advantage over just rendering to mpeg in Vegas. I've noticed a fee people say they do that and I would like to know if that is a better way.

Chris... I don't do a lot of video editing, but when I do, I am usually trying to get a lot of video onto a DVD. I've learned on here that TMPGEnc does a much better job of encoding than Vegas. That's why I render an intermediate file to use in TMPGEnc for encoding. I've been getting pretty good results encoding about 140 minutes of dance for one disc. It's working well for me so I continue to do it.

Brad Ridgeway · August 14th, 2013, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

Read Juris' link when you can, and in the meantime try adjusting your ac3 settings to the below settings. Should do the trick for you. This is what I was taught here and it works pretty well for me.

Audio Service > Dialog Normalization = -27dB
Pre-processing > Line Mode Profile = None
Pre-processing > RF Mode = None

I am assuming these are in the render settings for rendering out AC3 audio? I can't seem to find them. Could be the fact that I have two options in my render window - I can select Dolby Digital AC-3 Pro or Dolby Digital AC-3 Studio. If I select Pro, I get an error saying the plug-in is unavailable and that I can unlock it by install and registering DVD Architect Pro. Funny thing is - I do have Architect Pro installed, but it must not be registered. When I select the Studio option, I don't get any customizable settings.

Don Bloom · August 14th, 2013, 05:16 PM

You need to choose the AC3 Pro selection. Then highlight that and go into the dialogue menu that comes up.
The various settings that Jeff recommended are in the pages of that menu.
Audio Service Page
Dialogue Normalization = -31
Preprocessing Page
Line Mode Profile =None
RF Mode = None

Jeremiah Rickert · August 14th, 2013, 06:22 PM

Are you rendering out "Stereo DVD" in the AC-3 templates? Or are you using "Stereo DVD AGC" (automatic again control)?

AGC could be causing a problem.

I had an interesting thing crop up when I was attempting a 5.1 mix. I had filmed a live event and had a full 16 discrete tracks of audio to play with and it sounded great in my headphones and perfect when I played it through my 5.1 system, but when I listened to it on regular stereo TV speakers it was seriously clipping and sounded like you describe, which is why I ended up using regular ol' Stereo DVD.

I usually render out the audio separately like you using the Stereo DVD AC-3 template and use TMPG DVD Author to make the DVDs, but as long as I don't use AGC I have never had problems.

Juris Lielpeteris · August 14th, 2013, 11:51 PM

Dolby Digital Pro is not only and not so much audio compression codec but also audio signal dinamic range compressor and expander. To play to get the volume level requires both the encoder and the decoder parameters match the actual signal properties. Input volume is desirable to meet the IEEE 1770-2 recommendations. In this case, the playback level of the decoded signal to all phonograms would be the same if the play is chosen to be one of the algorithm.
Dolby Digital (studio) has simplified dynamic processing algorithm and DVD Architect Pro will always transcode it again.
Therefore, I suggest to get acquainted with the Dolby Digital standard principles which are quite difficult for consumers.

August 14th, 2013, 11:39 AM	#1
Brad Ridgeway Regular Crew Join Date: May 2011 Location: Warren, Ohio Posts: 108	Audio / Audio Rendering Questions I am working on a project in Vegas Pro 10. I have two sets of video/audio tracks on my timeline - each from separate Sony Handycams with Sony AVCHD footage which I believe have Dolby 5.1 sound. I am cutting between cameras for the video, but I am leaving both audio tracks in their entirety because I think it "sounds better" when played through my PC with both tracks overlaid versus each individual track on its own. The immediate issue I am encountering is that while the sound level seems good during editing on the PC through Vegas, the volume is VERY loud when the project is completed to DVD and played back on a television through a DVD or Blu-Ray player. I have my stereo set at "normal" volume, but have to turn it way down when playing my created DVDs. Here is my workflow... Render an intermediate Cineform AVI out of Vegas. Use TMPGEnc to encode to MPEG-2 DVD format with separate audio (AC3) and video files. Author the DVD in DVD Architect Pro using the encoded files and then create the DVD. I'm thinking the problem has something to do with the two audio tracks overlaid on the timeline but also think it could be somewhere in the rendering or encoding processes. The volume levels are set at 0dB for both audio tracks on the timeline. Any ideas? Also, does anyone know if my audio is still in Dolby 5.1 on the DVD after this workflow? If there are certain settings I should be selecting during render, please let me know what they are as I'm not sure about the audio side of things.

August 14th, 2013, 12:22 PM	#2
Juris Lielpeteris Major Player Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Riga, Latvija, EU Posts: 292	Re: Audio / Audio Rendering Questions http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/A...tandards.P.pdf See page 7.

August 14th, 2013, 02:59 PM	#3
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Audio / Audio Rendering Questions Read Juris' link when you can, and in the meantime try adjusting your ac3 settings to the below settings. Should do the trick for you. This is what I was taught here and it works pretty well for me. Audio Service > Dialog Normalization = -27dB Pre-processing > Line Mode Profile = None Pre-processing > RF Mode = None

August 14th, 2013, 03:01 PM	#4
Chris Hewitt Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Broadstairs,Kent, England Posts: 225	Re: Audio / Audio Rendering Questions Hi Brad...could be that you have those two audio tracks and together, they are outputing a fair amount of energy to push the meters up. See what the meters do when you just have one audio track playing. You could also use some cutting of low end eq to banish some of the lower frequencies...that should lower things a bit. Also using a compressor and limiter will help with the limiter at the end of the chain. Can you tell me why you render the video twice before it reaches DVD Architect? What is the advantage over just rendering to mpeg in Vegas. I've noticed a fee people say they do that and I would like to know if that is a better way.

August 14th, 2013, 03:05 PM	#5
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Audio / Audio Rendering Questions Chris makes a good point, two tracks will increase the volume. I do it all the time, because different cams pick up different things and they often blend well, one having more bass then the other, and the other having better treble pickup, etc. Lower to 3/4 or halfway or so on each track if you're using both. Use the above recommended settings, and you'll be fine.

August 14th, 2013, 03:41 PM	#6
Don Bloom Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,609	Re: Audio / Audio Rendering Questions In the Track Headers you can Right Click on the PAN Slider and there is a mini menu there. It reads something like ADD Channels (0 db center) Balance (0db center) Balance (-3db center) Balance (-6db center) Constant Power and Film. People forget to change that to something other than ADD channels. That can really make getting levels correct in the first place and then if you set your AC3 render to what Jeff said (I have it as a Preset...makes life easier) you should be fine. __________________ What do I know? I'm just a video-O-grafer. Don

August 14th, 2013, 05:16 PM	#9
Don Bloom Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,609	Re: Audio / Audio Rendering Questions You need to choose the AC3 Pro selection. Then highlight that and go into the dialogue menu that comes up. The various settings that Jeff recommended are in the pages of that menu. Audio Service Page Dialogue Normalization = -31 Preprocessing Page Line Mode Profile =None RF Mode = None __________________ What do I know? I'm just a video-O-grafer. Don

August 14th, 2013, 06:22 PM	#10
Jeremiah Rickert Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Newberg, Oregon Posts: 494	Re: Audio / Audio Rendering Questions Are you rendering out "Stereo DVD" in the AC-3 templates? Or are you using "Stereo DVD AGC" (automatic again control)? AGC could be causing a problem. I had an interesting thing crop up when I was attempting a 5.1 mix. I had filmed a live event and had a full 16 discrete tracks of audio to play with and it sounded great in my headphones and perfect when I played it through my 5.1 system, but when I listened to it on regular stereo TV speakers it was seriously clipping and sounded like you describe, which is why I ended up using regular ol' Stereo DVD. I usually render out the audio separately like you using the Stereo DVD AC-3 template and use TMPG DVD Author to make the DVDs, but as long as I don't use AGC I have never had problems.

August 14th, 2013, 11:51 PM	#11
Juris Lielpeteris Major Player Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Riga, Latvija, EU Posts: 292	Re: Audio / Audio Rendering Questions Dolby Digital Pro is not only and not so much audio compression codec but also audio signal dinamic range compressor and expander. To play to get the volume level requires both the encoder and the decoder parameters match the actual signal properties. Input volume is desirable to meet the IEEE 1770-2 recommendations. In this case, the playback level of the decoded signal to all phonograms would be the same if the play is chosen to be one of the algorithm. Dolby Digital (studio) has simplified dynamic processing algorithm and DVD Architect Pro will always transcode it again. Therefore, I suggest to get acquainted with the Dolby Digital standard principles which are quite difficult for consumers.