Manual syncing guestion

Jeff Harper · February 13th, 2013, 03:20 PM

Roberto, the original poster only asked for the easiest way to sync clips, he did not specify he wanted to do it manually. Robert Benda said he preferred to do it manually, and then others chimed in with differing opinions.

@ Robert Lee: How you choose to sync (manually or with Plural Eyes) depends on how much you have to sync, how many hours worth and how many cams, clips, etc.

A four camera shoot ceremony, over an hour long, with two voice recorders, and then a two or three camera reception that runs for several hours is a lot to sync manually.

The people that prefer to sync manually, I suspect, do not have 6 hours of footage and hundreds of clips to sort through. I did it manually for years. It generally takes a minimum an hour, and I've had times that took a full day.

Since I began using Plural Eyes it takes 10 minutes or so to do what used to take me hours.

For only a few large clips, it's not worth buying a program, but if you are spending 30 minutes or more on a regular basis, you would want to look at Plural Eyes 2. Plural Eyes 3 does not work in Vegas. Plural Eyes 2 works within Vegas, and comes free when you buy Plural Eyes 3. If you bought Plural Eyes 3, you would likely use the Plural Eyes 2 that comes along with Plural Eyes 3, and you probably would not even use the Plural Eyes 3.

I don't know if you can buy Plural Eyes 2 separately any more, don't think so.

Roberto Diaz · February 13th, 2013, 03:33 PM

Jeff--i stand corrected about the original post.

Also, your reply shows that a response can be helpful and thoughtful and can point out pros and cons of various approaches without resorting to insults. Thanks!

Jeff Harper · February 13th, 2013, 03:39 PM

No problem, Roberto. I, myself, have misread, misunderstood, so many times it would be embarrassing to admit if I knew the number of times I have done the same thing.

Roberto Diaz · February 13th, 2013, 03:55 PM

Not that it matters, but It seems we're both correct... The original post mentions manual syncing in the title.
:-)

Jeff Harper · February 13th, 2013, 04:18 PM

Well, there you go. I missed that completely! Not the first time, nor will it be the last. Thanks for pointing that out. It did not sound like he needed too buy a program, sounded like only a couple of items were involved anyway.

Edward Troxel · February 14th, 2013, 10:31 AM

In short - If you start all cameras at the very beginning and they run all the way through, syncing is very simple to do manually. Good examples of this are a wedding ceremony or a play/concert.

If you have multiple cameras that are starting and stopping and starting and stopping multiple times throughout the event, that can be a nightmare to do manually (I know, I've done it - and it was before Plural Eyes existed). In that case, something like Plural Eyes can definitely assist in the process. Looking at weddings again, a good example of this would be the reception. A TV program would also be an example of this.

And then you get to the third case - an external audio device that was started and ran the whole time. Easy to sync at the beginning but drifts over time! I've also had to split an audio track roughly every x minutes and get it back in sync because it was drifting over time. So split, move it left or right a frame every x minutes, and keep it in sync that way. Sometimes those are even more difficult to find!

Jeff Harper · February 14th, 2013, 10:59 AM

There is a trick I learned in the audio forum for audio tracks that do not match perfectly, it's a simple solution to the issue of drifting, no splitting of audio clips needed, takes only minutes.

1. If you have multiple video tracks to sync up, do that first, before bringing in your audio clip.

2. Add your "out of sync" audio clip normally.

3. Find a sync point at the beginning of the video, match up the audio clip at that point, trim the "front of the clip to that general area.

3. Now locate your end point sync spot in the video audio, place a marker there or do whatever you need to mark the spot. Trim the end of your audio clip to around that spot.

4. Grab and stretch (or shorten) the audio clip so that the end point of the audio clip matches the waveforms of the audio from the video.

5. You now have a synced audio clip that does not drift.

I forget the genius who shared that with me, but I will be forever indebted to him.

Roberto Diaz · February 14th, 2013, 12:09 PM

I dont have the numbers in front of me, but i thought at 29.97fps drift was only a few frames per hour. I would think that any decent modern audio recorder wouldnt drift -- given that its being driven by a stable crystal oscillator.

Regarding time stretching... Ive done that with multiple performances of the same piece. Thus each recording has slightly different timing. Id split and stretch to resync every 15-60 seconds to keep the timing right. It's time consuming for sure but allows me to use the best clips for all the various takes.

Jeff Harper · February 14th, 2013, 12:23 PM

If you timestretch it correctly, it can be good for an hour, no need to split clips.

Jim Schuchmann · February 14th, 2013, 04:21 PM

Jeff, your welcome and I don't know about being a genius, but thanks anyway.

It is important that you trim the audio clip to the exact spot at the beginning of the sync before you "stretch" the end of the sync or else the start point will "stretch" out of position. Same applies for the end of the clip if you need to adjust the start of the clip. It may just be a few frames but will be enough to hear if you have two audio tracks open at the same time. After the clip is sync you can expand the tracks back out if needed and everything stays in sync.

Jeff Harper · February 15th, 2013, 08:02 AM

Jim, thanks for clarifying about the need to trim the beginning of the clip precisely. I have shared your trick with several local editors and they were amazed a the simplicity and effectiveness of the method. Great stuff!

Jack Zhang · February 15th, 2013, 12:23 PM

Do keep in mind that nesting sequences in Vegas requires making a new project file for each shot. Stability cannot be guaranteed on the nested sequences and it has to render the audio first before you can use a nested sequence. This is kind of where Creative Suite wins out over Vegas. Vegas doesn't (in my knowledge) have merged clips yet.

Why would you want to nest a sequence/use merged clips? To edit multiple audio tracks along with the video in the Trimmer whilst everything has been synced up.

February 13th, 2013, 03:20 PM	#16
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Manual syncing guestion Roberto, the original poster only asked for the easiest way to sync clips, he did not specify he wanted to do it manually. Robert Benda said he preferred to do it manually, and then others chimed in with differing opinions. @ Robert Lee: How you choose to sync (manually or with Plural Eyes) depends on how much you have to sync, how many hours worth and how many cams, clips, etc. A four camera shoot ceremony, over an hour long, with two voice recorders, and then a two or three camera reception that runs for several hours is a lot to sync manually. The people that prefer to sync manually, I suspect, do not have 6 hours of footage and hundreds of clips to sort through. I did it manually for years. It generally takes a minimum an hour, and I've had times that took a full day. Since I began using Plural Eyes it takes 10 minutes or so to do what used to take me hours. For only a few large clips, it's not worth buying a program, but if you are spending 30 minutes or more on a regular basis, you would want to look at Plural Eyes 2. Plural Eyes 3 does not work in Vegas. Plural Eyes 2 works within Vegas, and comes free when you buy Plural Eyes 3. If you bought Plural Eyes 3, you would likely use the Plural Eyes 2 that comes along with Plural Eyes 3, and you probably would not even use the Plural Eyes 3. I don't know if you can buy Plural Eyes 2 separately any more, don't think so.

February 13th, 2013, 03:33 PM	#17
Roberto Diaz Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Northwest Chicago, IL Posts: 61	Re: Manual syncing guestion Jeff--i stand corrected about the original post. Also, your reply shows that a response can be helpful and thoughtful and can point out pros and cons of various approaches without resorting to insults. Thanks!

February 13th, 2013, 03:39 PM	#18
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Manual syncing guestion No problem, Roberto. I, myself, have misread, misunderstood, so many times it would be embarrassing to admit if I knew the number of times I have done the same thing.

February 13th, 2013, 03:55 PM	#19
Roberto Diaz Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Northwest Chicago, IL Posts: 61	Re: Manual syncing guestion Not that it matters, but It seems we're both correct... The original post mentions manual syncing in the title. :-)

February 13th, 2013, 04:18 PM	#20
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Manual syncing guestion Well, there you go. I missed that completely! Not the first time, nor will it be the last. Thanks for pointing that out. It did not sound like he needed too buy a program, sounded like only a couple of items were involved anyway.

February 14th, 2013, 10:31 AM	#21
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	Re: Manual syncing guestion In short - If you start all cameras at the very beginning and they run all the way through, syncing is very simple to do manually. Good examples of this are a wedding ceremony or a play/concert. If you have multiple cameras that are starting and stopping and starting and stopping multiple times throughout the event, that can be a nightmare to do manually (I know, I've done it - and it was before Plural Eyes existed). In that case, something like Plural Eyes can definitely assist in the process. Looking at weddings again, a good example of this would be the reception. A TV program would also be an example of this. And then you get to the third case - an external audio device that was started and ran the whole time. Easy to sync at the beginning but drifts over time! I've also had to split an audio track roughly every x minutes and get it back in sync because it was drifting over time. So split, move it left or right a frame every x minutes, and keep it in sync that way. Sometimes those are even more difficult to find! __________________ Edward Troxel [SCVU] JETDV Scripts/Scripting Tutorials/Excalibur/Montage Magic/Newsletters

February 14th, 2013, 10:59 AM	#22
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Manual syncing guestion There is a trick I learned in the audio forum for audio tracks that do not match perfectly, it's a simple solution to the issue of drifting, no splitting of audio clips needed, takes only minutes. 1. If you have multiple video tracks to sync up, do that first, before bringing in your audio clip. 2. Add your "out of sync" audio clip normally. 3. Find a sync point at the beginning of the video, match up the audio clip at that point, trim the "front of the clip to that general area. 3. Now locate your end point sync spot in the video audio, place a marker there or do whatever you need to mark the spot. Trim the end of your audio clip to around that spot. 4. Grab and stretch (or shorten) the audio clip so that the end point of the audio clip matches the waveforms of the audio from the video. 5. You now have a synced audio clip that does not drift. I forget the genius who shared that with me, but I will be forever indebted to him.

February 14th, 2013, 12:09 PM	#23
Roberto Diaz Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Northwest Chicago, IL Posts: 61	Re: Manual syncing guestion I dont have the numbers in front of me, but i thought at 29.97fps drift was only a few frames per hour. I would think that any decent modern audio recorder wouldnt drift -- given that its being driven by a stable crystal oscillator. Regarding time stretching... Ive done that with multiple performances of the same piece. Thus each recording has slightly different timing. Id split and stretch to resync every 15-60 seconds to keep the timing right. It's time consuming for sure but allows me to use the best clips for all the various takes.

February 14th, 2013, 12:23 PM	#24
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Manual syncing guestion If you timestretch it correctly, it can be good for an hour, no need to split clips.

February 14th, 2013, 04:21 PM	#25
Jim Schuchmann Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 123	Re: Manual syncing guestion Jeff, your welcome and I don't know about being a genius, but thanks anyway. It is important that you trim the audio clip to the exact spot at the beginning of the sync before you "stretch" the end of the sync or else the start point will "stretch" out of position. Same applies for the end of the clip if you need to adjust the start of the clip. It may just be a few frames but will be enough to hear if you have two audio tracks open at the same time. After the clip is sync you can expand the tracks back out if needed and everything stays in sync.

February 15th, 2013, 08:02 AM	#26
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Manual syncing guestion Jim, thanks for clarifying about the need to trim the beginning of the clip precisely. I have shared your trick with several local editors and they were amazed a the simplicity and effectiveness of the method. Great stuff!

February 15th, 2013, 12:23 PM	#27
Jack Zhang Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada Posts: 3,053	Re: Manual syncing guestion Do keep in mind that nesting sequences in Vegas requires making a new project file for each shot. Stability cannot be guaranteed on the nested sequences and it has to render the audio first before you can use a nested sequence. This is kind of where Creative Suite wins out over Vegas. Vegas doesn't (in my knowledge) have merged clips yet. Why would you want to nest a sequence/use merged clips? To edit multiple audio tracks along with the video in the Trimmer whilst everything has been synced up.