Color Fix: Black is Brown?

Jeff Harper · December 29th, 2011, 03:31 PM

Forgetting about the fabric debate for a second, I shot a lot of weddings with the FX1000, and I had many times when black suits looked brown, it drove me crazy on many-an-edit. There was just nothing I could do. The Panasonic HMC150, however really produced much truer blacks. While I did not care for the Panasonic, I did like it's color reproduction a lot in situations where the Sony was overly warm or muddied. Those cameras were not a good match.

Chris Medico · December 29th, 2011, 03:39 PM

Jeff,

That is due to one camera being CCD and the other being CMOS. CMOS is much more sensitive to NIR than CCD is.

Jeff Harper · December 29th, 2011, 03:52 PM

Well, that certainly explains things. I love my new cams, mostly true blacks now, just so much better.

Ron Evans · December 29th, 2011, 05:16 PM

Shooting with EX3, NX5U, SR11 and XR500 for a theatre show the EX3 show the same effect on black costumes, NX5U has just a little of the same effect but the SR11 and XR500 show true black. All are CMOS. I now accept this is going to happen and correct as I do not own the EX3 it is used by a friend for the shows. I think the consumer cameras have the IR filter built in.

The fabric does have an effect based on how it responds to IR light/reflection. Painted matte black sets do not seem to show the effect.

Ron Evans

Chris Harding · December 29th, 2011, 06:23 PM

Hi Guys

Just for interest, I have never had that issue with my Panasonics and my first two pairs of cameras were CCD and the current ones are CMOS but I must admit that Panasonic have always got the colour right for me...colour grading or correction is a rare event for me!!!

Luckily I have never come across Nicholas's issue !! The big problem is trying to explain to a non-technical bride why her husband's jacket is the wrong colour!!!

Chris

Ron Evans · December 29th, 2011, 07:50 PM

I have not tried to fix in Vegas but the fix in Edius is not that time consuming. The first time it took me about 30 mins since I wasn't sure what I was doing !!! Now it is quick to use the preset I created and just fine tune. Essentially a colour mask and secondary colour filter. Should be possible in Vegas too.

Ron Evans

Chris Medico · December 29th, 2011, 08:29 PM

FYI, I have the EX1r and I've not had the IR issues even though I shoot under conditions that would cause them in the original EX1. Sony got an ear full about the problem and at least addressed it in this camera series.

I've not noticed any blacks going red with the Sony F3 either.

Cross my fingers they learned a lesson there.

Nicholas de Kock · December 30th, 2011, 02:51 AM

To settle the lighting debate the couple was evenly lit by two Arri lights on either side (left & right), I was quite chuffed with my lighting, the church is as dark as a dungeon. It's definitively an IR issue compounded by the custom profile I created on my EX1, I will have to create a new profile for hot lights and black materials while I wait for my IR filter. I also tried selective coloring by isolating the red but the red is in skin tones as well so it's pretty pointless without affecting skin tones of guests unless I start masking. The problem is luckily carried over from the beginning during the groom preparations so it's a theme, the overall product is a pretty amazing edit so I don't think they will mind the color spill & if they ask there really is nothing that can be done at this point from a time vs cost perspective.

Ron Evans · December 30th, 2011, 07:58 AM

The key to colour correcting is creating a mask just for the jacket/suit not the colour which will effect the whole image. Once you have the mask you can turn it into any colour you like !!

Ron Evans

Mike Kujbida · December 30th, 2011, 08:06 AM

Nicholas, there was a similar thread on the Sony Vegas forum and the general consensus was that it would be a LOT of work to fix this problem in post.
Color Correction Help
I couldn't remember the thread so I asked for some help in finding it.
FWIW, here are two comments from my request.

The filter he needs (or maybe NEEDS) is a Tiffin T1. Fixing it in post is not a good idea, especially for something long form like a wedding. I'm not snobby about much but I will no longer use an EX series camera without one.
He may be able to tweek it out with some color correction, but I see a lot of keyframing in his future.

It is true that some dyed synthetic fabrics register poorly because of IR interaction, esp. with bright tungsten or halogen lighting. It's been the bane of wedding photographers for decades, where the groomsmen's wool tuxedos look right, but the best man's synthetic tux comes out deep amber.
Unfortunately, filtering IR at the lens is not terribly effective iirc, and filtering the lighting source would be generally impractical. Glass in itself is a moderately effective filter of IR in the near-visible spectrum.
WRT the thread at dvinfo, Chris Medico's comments seem spot on. I worked in custom photo labs for the better part of two decades, and I bet there wasn't a month went by that this issue didn't come up in the midst of a wedding job. The fix then was building costly film masks for the final presentation prints, but of course that's an impossible approach with video.

Charles Newcomb · December 30th, 2011, 01:36 PM

That issue used to drive me nuts when I was using the EX3. I found that bumping the contrast slightly did seem to help, but of course it changes the overall look of the footage.

Good luck with this. Man, that is some nasty IR going on there.

Jeff Harper · December 31st, 2011, 06:03 AM

Mike, that filter is awesome, just looked it up, would solve the problem totally, it appears, and can be left on the camera all the time according to Tiffen.

Chris Medico · December 31st, 2011, 06:23 AM

It can be left on the camera but it will cost you 1/2 stop of light.

It shouldn't be an issue since it would be used most often under strong hot lights. Just something to remember.

December 29th, 2011, 03:31 PM	#16
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown? Forgetting about the fabric debate for a second, I shot a lot of weddings with the FX1000, and I had many times when black suits looked brown, it drove me crazy on many-an-edit. There was just nothing I could do. The Panasonic HMC150, however really produced much truer blacks. While I did not care for the Panasonic, I did like it's color reproduction a lot in situations where the Sony was overly warm or muddied. Those cameras were not a good match.

December 29th, 2011, 03:39 PM	#17
Chris Medico Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Efland NC, USA Posts: 2,322	Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown? Jeff, That is due to one camera being CCD and the other being CMOS. CMOS is much more sensitive to NIR than CCD is. __________________ http://www.LandYachtMedia.com

December 29th, 2011, 03:52 PM	#18
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown? Well, that certainly explains things. I love my new cams, mostly true blacks now, just so much better.

December 29th, 2011, 05:16 PM	#19
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown? Shooting with EX3, NX5U, SR11 and XR500 for a theatre show the EX3 show the same effect on black costumes, NX5U has just a little of the same effect but the SR11 and XR500 show true black. All are CMOS. I now accept this is going to happen and correct as I do not own the EX3 it is used by a friend for the shows. I think the consumer cameras have the IR filter built in. The fabric does have an effect based on how it responds to IR light/reflection. Painted matte black sets do not seem to show the effect. Ron Evans

December 29th, 2011, 06:23 PM	#20
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown? Hi Guys Just for interest, I have never had that issue with my Panasonics and my first two pairs of cameras were CCD and the current ones are CMOS but I must admit that Panasonic have always got the colour right for me...colour grading or correction is a rare event for me!!! Luckily I have never come across Nicholas's issue !! The big problem is trying to explain to a non-technical bride why her husband's jacket is the wrong colour!!! Chris

December 29th, 2011, 07:50 PM	#21
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown? I have not tried to fix in Vegas but the fix in Edius is not that time consuming. The first time it took me about 30 mins since I wasn't sure what I was doing !!! Now it is quick to use the preset I created and just fine tune. Essentially a colour mask and secondary colour filter. Should be possible in Vegas too. Ron Evans

December 29th, 2011, 08:29 PM	#22
Chris Medico Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Efland NC, USA Posts: 2,322	Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown? FYI, I have the EX1r and I've not had the IR issues even though I shoot under conditions that would cause them in the original EX1. Sony got an ear full about the problem and at least addressed it in this camera series. I've not noticed any blacks going red with the Sony F3 either. Cross my fingers they learned a lesson there. __________________ http://www.LandYachtMedia.com

December 30th, 2011, 02:51 AM	#23
Nicholas de Kock Major Player Join Date: May 2007 Location: KLD, South Africa Posts: 983	Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown? To settle the lighting debate the couple was evenly lit by two Arri lights on either side (left & right), I was quite chuffed with my lighting, the church is as dark as a dungeon. It's definitively an IR issue compounded by the custom profile I created on my EX1, I will have to create a new profile for hot lights and black materials while I wait for my IR filter. I also tried selective coloring by isolating the red but the red is in skin tones as well so it's pretty pointless without affecting skin tones of guests unless I start masking. The problem is luckily carried over from the beginning during the groom preparations so it's a theme, the overall product is a pretty amazing edit so I don't think they will mind the color spill & if they ask there really is nothing that can be done at this point from a time vs cost perspective.

December 30th, 2011, 07:58 AM	#24
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown? The key to colour correcting is creating a mask just for the jacket/suit not the colour which will effect the whole image. Once you have the mask you can turn it into any colour you like !! Ron Evans

December 30th, 2011, 08:06 AM	#25
Mike Kujbida Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Windsor, ON Canada Posts: 2,770	Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown? Nicholas, there was a similar thread on the Sony Vegas forum and the general consensus was that it would be a LOT of work to fix this problem in post. Color Correction Help I couldn't remember the thread so I asked for some help in finding it. FWIW, here are two comments from my request. The filter he needs (or maybe NEEDS) is a Tiffin T1. Fixing it in post is not a good idea, especially for something long form like a wedding. I'm not snobby about much but I will no longer use an EX series camera without one. He may be able to tweek it out with some color correction, but I see a lot of keyframing in his future. It is true that some dyed synthetic fabrics register poorly because of IR interaction, esp. with bright tungsten or halogen lighting. It's been the bane of wedding photographers for decades, where the groomsmen's wool tuxedos look right, but the best man's synthetic tux comes out deep amber. Unfortunately, filtering IR at the lens is not terribly effective iirc, and filtering the lighting source would be generally impractical. Glass in itself is a moderately effective filter of IR in the near-visible spectrum. WRT the thread at dvinfo, Chris Medico's comments seem spot on. I worked in custom photo labs for the better part of two decades, and I bet there wasn't a month went by that this issue didn't come up in the midst of a wedding job. The fix then was building costly film masks for the final presentation prints, but of course that's an impossible approach with video.

December 30th, 2011, 01:36 PM	#26
Charles Newcomb Major Player Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Salida, Colorado Posts: 561	Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown? That issue used to drive me nuts when I was using the EX3. I found that bumping the contrast slightly did seem to help, but of course it changes the overall look of the footage. Good luck with this. Man, that is some nasty IR going on there.

December 31st, 2011, 06:03 AM	#27
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown? Mike, that filter is awesome, just looked it up, would solve the problem totally, it appears, and can be left on the camera all the time according to Tiffen.

December 31st, 2011, 06:23 AM	#28
Chris Medico Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Efland NC, USA Posts: 2,322	Re: Color Fix: Black is Brown? It can be left on the camera but it will cost you 1/2 stop of light. It shouldn't be an issue since it would be used most often under strong hot lights. Just something to remember. __________________ http://www.LandYachtMedia.com