Audio Editing at DVinfo.net

Rick Newsom · November 13th, 2011, 02:38 PM

Due to familiarity with Vegas from lots of video editing, when I work on audio projects, I tend to reach for Vegas first. Now, I'm working on several multi-track songs (audio only) that some friends and I recorded over the summer and have noticed what I feel are a few shortcomings in Vegas when it comes to audio editing.

First, up is latency while recording. When I try to record a new track, I get unpredictable results when checking the box to "automatically detect and offset for hardware recording latency". Un-check the box and attempting to adjust it manually yields similarly erratic results. One take will be a little behind the beat, the next further behind, the next, not so much, etc. This is frustrating.

Second, rendering. These songs are pretty complex with up to 40 tracks, and lots of DSP plugins, sometimes several, on each track. The computer will play the songs fine in real time, but lately, I've had Vegas freeze at 0% on the progress bar when trying to render to WAV or MP3. I found that removing some of the plugins would eventually allow the me to render successfully.

Any ideas?

Am I wasting my time trying to edit audio with Vegas?

Vegas Pro 8
Presonus Firestudio Project (ASIO drivers)
Reasonably new Intel Quad Core based system running Windows 7

Thanks.

Allan Black · November 13th, 2011, 04:32 PM

You need Sony Soundforge for that level of audio work. Try their demo.

Cheers.

Rick Newsom · November 14th, 2011, 10:09 AM

Thanks for the reply Allan.

I was somewhat familiar with Soundforge from years ago, but, I took another look at it on your recommendation. It appears that Soundforge is still basically an audio editing/mastering tool similar to Steinberg Wavelab and is not designed to easily accommodate large numbers of tracks like other programs such as Reaper, Pro Tools, Sonar, and Vegas.

If I was in this as a business, I could probably justify buying a Pro Tools setup, but, since this is just a hobby, I guess I'll just continue to put up with the limitations of Vegas until this project is complete, and then maybe switch to Reaper. The individual license is only $60 and I've heard good things about it.

But since I'm so familiar with the way Vegas works, and since it works so well with the exception of a couple of quirks, I'd really rather stick with Vegas.

Magnus Helander · November 14th, 2011, 04:47 PM

Hmmm... I would add more RAM and run 64-bit editions of Windows 7 and Vegas
/magnus

Larry Reavis · November 19th, 2011, 07:46 PM

I do use SoundForge, but I can do just about all the audio editing in Vegas alone if I use the abundant (often free) audio plugins that work great with Vegas.

I, too, use only 64-bit versions of Vegas in Win 7 for rendering and never have a problem. I mostly edit in Vegas 8c, but always render in one of the later versions of Vegas 9-64 bits.

If money is tight, as the owner of Vega 8, you are eligible to download Vegas 8.1-64. It had lots of problems, but I don't remember that it stumbled on rendering audio. It might be worth a try.

That way, for around $100 you could buy an OEM copy of Win7-64. With luck, your current hardware will work with it. More RAM certainly could help Win7-64. But once I pulled out all but 2 of my 12 GB RAM just to see what happened. Vegas 64-bit ran really slowly, but it did render just fine - given enough time. Adding 2 more GB helped a lot, and having 6 GB gave me normal performance. Skip the fast RAM - it really does little for Vegas users when it comes to rendering.

6 GB RAM, or even 8 GB, is not expensive, and you'll probably be very pleased with the result if you switch to Win7-64 (don't worry, your 32-bit software should work just fine). Plus everything else you do on your computer should result in a better experience. Highly recommended.

Mike Calla · November 22nd, 2011, 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allan Black

You need Sony Soundforge for that level of audio work. Try their demo.

Cheers.

No, Sound forge is useless for this line of work. Sf is for very precise manipulation of two track (or multitrack) wav, etc

Mike Calla · November 22nd, 2011, 04:35 AM

Without a doubt, Sony's ACID Pro 7, especially if you're a Vegas user!!!! You jump right, very little learning curve.

Joe Kollee · November 23rd, 2011, 03:36 PM

I recorded a concert and built a dvd project for a client. I used separate sound recorder with my 7d. So yesterday, they asked me if I could make a audio cd for the songs and I said sure it would be easy.
Well, what a pain. Started at 10pm, finished at 3am. My issue seems to be a common issue, being that building a audio cd from the timeline, in either disc at once or track at once ( I think it is called track at once ) left me with about 4 min of audio and then complete blankness for the rest of the songs. So I thought it was me, read on line how red book works, and after about 8 failed cds, I started searching for this issue. Now how do you type that kind of issue into google... Well I found a post by someone, who ran into the same issue, it cost him dearly as he produced and sold his cds, but he did not listen past the 2nd song. Someone replied that this bug was introduced in version 10 and when I tried it in version 10, it did it too...they recommended going to version 9. At 2:45am, I installed the 64bit version 9 pro on the system, and dropped the songs in the media bins, in order, set the timeline to start at 2min, selected all the media, right clicked said media, added as audio cd to the timeline. Hit burn disc at once. Walla perfect.

Then swore as I forgot to set the compressor, fixed, re-did the disc and in less than 15 min total, including the download, i was all up and running.

Not sure this will fix your issue or not, but thought I would go over something I found that others might be going through. I bet there are posts here too about this already, if so, it is still happening in version 11a.

Adam Stanislav · November 24th, 2011, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Kollee

it is still happening in version 11a.

Where did you get version 11a? The latest version I have seen so far was 11, build 425.

Joe Kollee · November 24th, 2011, 07:59 PM

You know you are right, it is 11 build 425. That is funny, now for years they have been adding a letter after each upgrade. soooo I assumed it.

I sit corrected :)

David Jimerson · November 25th, 2011, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Kollee

it cost him dearly as he produced and sold his cds, but he did not listen past the 2nd song.

OK, that's just plain dumb.

Cole McDonald · November 26th, 2011, 10:18 AM

Have you looked at Ardour? Or the ever mentioned Audacity?

Seth Bloombaum · November 26th, 2011, 11:03 AM

There should be no disagreement about Vegas' capacity as a multitrack audio editing system - it's great. The original Vegas *was* just that, and introduced as a complement to SoundForge's excellent stereo capabilities. It was later that Vegas also became a video editing system, while retaining all the audio goodness.

For some of us that's very important - being able to finish, for example, a music project that has a few cams of visual coverage along with a 24-track recording.

However, it's never been perfect for compliant CD-Audio output. I think it's similar to the DVD or BD from the timeline functions - Vegas has a quick & dirty output method, but for any more serious exploration of shiny disk capabilities, you go to eg. DVD-Architect.

Sony sells an excellent CD-Audio authoring program called CD-Architect. At times this has been bundled with SoundForge. I think more recently some of the CD-A functions have been brought inside SF. (I haven't kept up with recent SF releases)

If you like mixing, and mastering in Vegas there's no reason to go to another NLE/DAW, find a good CD authoring program! I like CD-Architect... there are others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Newsom

...First, up is latency while recording. When I try to record a new track, I get unpredictable results when checking the box to "automatically detect and offset for hardware recording latency". Un-check the box and attempting to adjust it manually yields similarly erratic results. One take will be a little behind the beat, the next further behind, the next, not so much, etc. This is frustrating. ...

I dunno' about tracking with a firewire interface. There have been some FW issues with Win7, which you can search some threads for more info, search on "legacy firewire". I never tried automatic latency adjustments, always went manual with good results. There are probably adjustments in a PreSonus control as well as what Vegas offers.

Rendering problems - never had this with audio projects, including on V8. Are you using your Firestudio for monitoring? Seems like simplifying the project to a single audio card would be a good idea. If you're on the FS for monitoring, maybe you want to disconnect the FS and switch to a MOBO sound out for rendering. Or vice-versa.

Or maybe these problems go away when you just render wavs for use in a separate CD authoring program?

Are you doing all 44.1 sampling rates throughout the project?

Ron Evans · November 26th, 2011, 11:22 AM

I have used Sound Forge for recording stereo tracks, then mixed many of these tracks in Vegas and use CD architect for authoring the CD. They all work very well together as a set.

The process is to mix multitrack in Vegas, transfer stereo mix-down to Sound Forge edit if needed, set markers for track positions ( name if you like as these will become track CD text), convert markers to regions, transfer to CD Architect which will recognize regions as tracks then fine tune the CD ( set pause times, remove dialog etc) and burn. All these transfers are part of the programs it is really just open in the other program. This is how I make a CD of a music show from the video I shoot.

Ron Evans

Duane Adam · December 4th, 2011, 10:45 AM

In regards to latency, Vegas seems to work like any other DAW in that latency is dependent on the converter and interface. I use a Weiss mastering converter, which has high latency and have to actually move the tracks a bit after recording so they're in sync. I recently added an API A2D which has low latency and the tracks record without the need to realign them.

Vegas doesn't seem to play well with a variety of audio plugins so while it's fine for a small production, I think a dedicated audio program like Cubase is a safer bet for anything complex. I'm also a big fan of Reaper which is only $225 and is a pretty solid audio only option.

November 13th, 2011, 02:38 PM	#1
Rick Newsom New Boot Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Elkins, WV Posts: 20	Audio Editing Due to familiarity with Vegas from lots of video editing, when I work on audio projects, I tend to reach for Vegas first. Now, I'm working on several multi-track songs (audio only) that some friends and I recorded over the summer and have noticed what I feel are a few shortcomings in Vegas when it comes to audio editing. First, up is latency while recording. When I try to record a new track, I get unpredictable results when checking the box to "automatically detect and offset for hardware recording latency". Un-check the box and attempting to adjust it manually yields similarly erratic results. One take will be a little behind the beat, the next further behind, the next, not so much, etc. This is frustrating. Second, rendering. These songs are pretty complex with up to 40 tracks, and lots of DSP plugins, sometimes several, on each track. The computer will play the songs fine in real time, but lately, I've had Vegas freeze at 0% on the progress bar when trying to render to WAV or MP3. I found that removing some of the plugins would eventually allow the me to render successfully. Any ideas? Am I wasting my time trying to edit audio with Vegas? Vegas Pro 8 Presonus Firestudio Project (ASIO drivers) Reasonably new Intel Quad Core based system running Windows 7 Thanks.

November 13th, 2011, 04:32 PM	#2
Allan Black Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Sydney. Posts: 2,936	Re: Audio Editing You need Sony Soundforge for that level of audio work. Try their demo. Cheers. __________________ Drink more tap water. On admission at Sydney hospitals more than 5% of day patients are de-hydrated.

November 14th, 2011, 10:09 AM	#3
Rick Newsom New Boot Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Elkins, WV Posts: 20	Re: Audio Editing Thanks for the reply Allan. I was somewhat familiar with Soundforge from years ago, but, I took another look at it on your recommendation. It appears that Soundforge is still basically an audio editing/mastering tool similar to Steinberg Wavelab and is not designed to easily accommodate large numbers of tracks like other programs such as Reaper, Pro Tools, Sonar, and Vegas. If I was in this as a business, I could probably justify buying a Pro Tools setup, but, since this is just a hobby, I guess I'll just continue to put up with the limitations of Vegas until this project is complete, and then maybe switch to Reaper. The individual license is only $60 and I've heard good things about it. But since I'm so familiar with the way Vegas works, and since it works so well with the exception of a couple of quirks, I'd really rather stick with Vegas.

November 14th, 2011, 04:47 PM	#4
Magnus Helander Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Sweden Posts: 221	Re: Audio Editing Hmmm... I would add more RAM and run 64-bit editions of Windows 7 and Vegas /magnus __________________ Magnus Helander, Crossmediageek on G+

November 19th, 2011, 07:46 PM	#5
Larry Reavis Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Encinitas California Posts: 121	Re: Audio Editing I do use SoundForge, but I can do just about all the audio editing in Vegas alone if I use the abundant (often free) audio plugins that work great with Vegas. I, too, use only 64-bit versions of Vegas in Win 7 for rendering and never have a problem. I mostly edit in Vegas 8c, but always render in one of the later versions of Vegas 9-64 bits. If money is tight, as the owner of Vega 8, you are eligible to download Vegas 8.1-64. It had lots of problems, but I don't remember that it stumbled on rendering audio. It might be worth a try. That way, for around $100 you could buy an OEM copy of Win7-64. With luck, your current hardware will work with it. More RAM certainly could help Win7-64. But once I pulled out all but 2 of my 12 GB RAM just to see what happened. Vegas 64-bit ran really slowly, but it did render just fine - given enough time. Adding 2 more GB helped a lot, and having 6 GB gave me normal performance. Skip the fast RAM - it really does little for Vegas users when it comes to rendering. 6 GB RAM, or even 8 GB, is not expensive, and you'll probably be very pleased with the result if you switch to Win7-64 (don't worry, your 32-bit software should work just fine). Plus everything else you do on your computer should result in a better experience. Highly recommended.

November 22nd, 2011, 04:35 AM	#7
Mike Calla Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Shanghai Posts: 344	Re: Audio Editing Without a doubt, Sony's ACID Pro 7, especially if you're a Vegas user!!!! You jump right, very little learning curve. __________________ boxoutsidemedia.com

November 23rd, 2011, 03:36 PM	#8
Joe Kollee Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Niagara Falls, Canada Posts: 43	Re: Audio Editing I recorded a concert and built a dvd project for a client. I used separate sound recorder with my 7d. So yesterday, they asked me if I could make a audio cd for the songs and I said sure it would be easy. Well, what a pain. Started at 10pm, finished at 3am. My issue seems to be a common issue, being that building a audio cd from the timeline, in either disc at once or track at once ( I think it is called track at once ) left me with about 4 min of audio and then complete blankness for the rest of the songs. So I thought it was me, read on line how red book works, and after about 8 failed cds, I started searching for this issue. Now how do you type that kind of issue into google... Well I found a post by someone, who ran into the same issue, it cost him dearly as he produced and sold his cds, but he did not listen past the 2nd song. Someone replied that this bug was introduced in version 10 and when I tried it in version 10, it did it too...they recommended going to version 9. At 2:45am, I installed the 64bit version 9 pro on the system, and dropped the songs in the media bins, in order, set the timeline to start at 2min, selected all the media, right clicked said media, added as audio cd to the timeline. Hit burn disc at once. Walla perfect. Then swore as I forgot to set the compressor, fixed, re-did the disc and in less than 15 min total, including the download, i was all up and running. Not sure this will fix your issue or not, but thought I would go over something I found that others might be going through. I bet there are posts here too about this already, if so, it is still happening in version 11a.

November 24th, 2011, 07:59 PM	#10
Joe Kollee Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Niagara Falls, Canada Posts: 43	Re: Audio Editing You know you are right, it is 11 build 425. That is funny, now for years they have been adding a letter after each upgrade. soooo I assumed it. I sit corrected :)

November 26th, 2011, 10:18 AM	#12
Cole McDonald Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sauk Rapids, MN, USA Posts: 1,675	Re: Audio Editing Have you looked at Ardour? Or the ever mentioned Audacity? __________________ Web Youtube Facebook

November 26th, 2011, 11:22 AM	#14
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,222	Re: Audio Editing I have used Sound Forge for recording stereo tracks, then mixed many of these tracks in Vegas and use CD architect for authoring the CD. They all work very well together as a set. The process is to mix multitrack in Vegas, transfer stereo mix-down to Sound Forge edit if needed, set markers for track positions ( name if you like as these will become track CD text), convert markers to regions, transfer to CD Architect which will recognize regions as tracks then fine tune the CD ( set pause times, remove dialog etc) and burn. All these transfers are part of the programs it is really just open in the other program. This is how I make a CD of a music show from the video I shoot. Ron Evans

December 4th, 2011, 10:45 AM	#15
Duane Adam Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Gilroy, CA Posts: 398	Re: Audio Editing In regards to latency, Vegas seems to work like any other DAW in that latency is dependent on the converter and interface. I use a Weiss mastering converter, which has high latency and have to actually move the tracks a bit after recording so they're in sync. I recently added an API A2D which has low latency and the tracks record without the need to realign them. Vegas doesn't seem to play well with a variety of audio plugins so while it's fine for a small production, I think a dedicated audio program like Cubase is a safer bet for anything complex. I'm also a big fan of Reaper which is only $225 and is a pretty solid audio only option. Last edited by Duane Adam; December 4th, 2011 at 12:09 PM.