1080i to dvd looks like VHS

Eric Kruis · November 5th, 2011, 07:27 PM

Seth,

I do have a feeling that compression/recompression has something to do with my issues. I just don't know enough yet to set the proper settings. The default templates look much worse than any renders I have done from mini-dv footage. But, am I right to assume that shooting HD footage and authoring to DVD should give me a better picture than shooting in SD and authoring to DVD? Otherwise, why do people even bother to shoot HD unless they are all authoring to Blu_ray'?

I have noticed that my static shots look decent, but as soon as their is a camera pan or moving object, it looks brutal. Could that be a hint to the problem? ie. compression, interlacing, etc?

I have attached a screen grab of what a pan looks like on a finished render. Lots of jagged lines, jittery picture.

Again, thanks everyone for your suggestions. Keep them coming!

Don Bloom · November 5th, 2011, 10:43 PM

When rendering to MPG2 Vegas Render As defaults to 8, 6, and 192,000. Set the low number to 2,000,000, leave the top number at 8,000,000 and work with the middle or Average number to fit the amount of time the video project fills on the timeline. those numbers will work for project length upto 70 minutes. If you don't set the rates correctly IE too high for the size of the project DVDA will recompress the video and since it's already be done once when it get recompressed it will look pretty bad.
Edwards newletter of June 2003 Vol 1 No. 7 has a bitrate chart on page 2. It's my bible for setting bitrates.
Give that a try and see how it works but you need to start with a clean project, IOW nothing that has been compressed. Start with the VEG file then render away and see how it comes out in DVDA.

Jeff Harper · November 5th, 2011, 11:25 PM

Seth, excellent point, and good catch. Eric, what Seth points out is entirely correct. If you are rendering your files and they are non-DVDA compliant, DVDA will recompress them, often not to well.

Eric Kruis · November 6th, 2011, 08:06 AM

Ok,

I will try the settings Don recommends and look up Edward Troxel's bit rate chart.

However, do I still choose the DVDA NTSC widescreen template, and then just choose Custom, and adjust settings for variable bit rate?

Thanks so much,

Eric

Don Bloom · November 6th, 2011, 08:13 AM

Eric, Short answer YES! Custom is your friend. I almost always use VBR (1 or 2 pass depending on content) set the Average number depending on the length of the project according to Edwards BR chart and I always use AC3 audio. It is compressed but allows for a higher BR for the video than PCM audio and frankly to my old ears there is no difference in quality in audio for the finished product.
See how it works out and let us know.

Phil Lee · November 6th, 2011, 01:52 PM

Hi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Kruis

Seth,

I do have a feeling that compression/recompression has something to do with my issues. I just don't know enough yet to set the proper settings. The default templates look much worse than any renders I have done from mini-dv footage. But, am I right to assume that shooting HD footage and authoring to DVD should give me a better picture than shooting in SD and authoring to DVD? Otherwise, why do people even bother to shoot HD unless they are all authoring to Blu_ray'?

I have noticed that my static shots look decent, but as soon as their is a camera pan or moving object, it looks brutal. Could that be a hint to the problem? ie. compression, interlacing, etc?

I have attached a screen grab of what a pan looks like on a finished render. Lots of jagged lines, jittery picture.

Again, thanks everyone for your suggestions. Keep them coming!

What software are you playing that back in? It looks like it isn't being deinterlaced hence you see combing, so there may not be a problem at all with the encoding, just with whatever is playing it back.

Have you tried playing it back on a DVD player to a TV to see what it looks like?

Going from 1080i to SD will not necessarily give you a better picture than starting out in SD would, this is because resizing 1080i to interlaced SD is only giving you an approximation of interlaced SD.

Regards

Phil

Richard Davidson · November 6th, 2011, 06:57 PM

Jeff, my best guess is that HDLink has been changed to Neoscene from reading on their website. The cost is $129, does that sound about right?

Jeff Harper · November 6th, 2011, 07:14 PM

No, sadly. Neoscene will not resize. HDLink and was a part of NeoHD; it had cost $499, I think the new one is a studio thingy name, and HD Link is a part of that.

As an example, I often take 1440xX1080i resize it to 720p, to match my three 720p cameras, and it matches wonderfully, no deinterlacing articfacts, nothing, it is always perfect. My DVDs look so good I'd put mine up against a Bluray, they look that good.

Currently, I shoot 1080i and I deinterlace and resize with HD Link, but as mentioned I resize to 720p and edit with that and it too makes wonderful DVDs. Cineform can be a complete pain until you get the workflow down, but once you do, you are golden.

Eric Kruis · November 6th, 2011, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Lee

Hi

What software are you playing that back in? It looks like it isn't being deinterlaced hence you see combing, so there may not be a problem at all with the encoding, just with whatever is playing it back.

Have you tried playing it back on a DVD player to a TV to see what it looks like?

Going from 1080i to SD will not necessarily give you a better picture than starting out in SD would, this is because resizing 1080i to interlaced SD is only giving you an approximation of interlaced SD.

Regards

Phil

Hi Phil,

I played back the finished product on a regular dvd player and a BluRay player. Video looked badly on both. Especially pans.

What could have I done in rendering to cause the combing?

Over the next few days I have some time to try some of the suggestions here.

Thanks,

Eric

Richard Davidson · November 6th, 2011, 08:53 PM

Now I see the HDLink in the Neo package, $299

David Jasany · November 7th, 2011, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Bloom

Eric, Short answer YES! Custom is your friend. I almost always use VBR (1 or 2 pass depending on content) set the Average number depending on the length of the project according to Edwards BR chart and I always use AC3 audio. It is compressed but allows for a higher BR for the video than PCM audio and frankly to my old ears there is no difference in quality in audio for the finished product.
See how it works out and let us know.

Don, could you please give some examples where you use 1 pass. vs. 2 pass? Thanks.

Don Bloom · November 7th, 2011, 08:02 AM

David,
Sure. For most everything I do be it a wedding or a seminar I use 1 pass. What I have found is that 1 pass does a really nice job for those types of things. Even for wedding receptions dancing, 1 pass is quite good and since it's so dark and I cut pretty much all of my moves from one end of the dance floor to the other and most of my pans sweeping the floor from one subject to another 1 pass seems to work quite well.
If I'm doing something with a lot of fast movement in particular sports, football or basketball in particular, I more likely than not use 2 pass since it's difficult to cut around pans which is where I have found the interlacing shows the most.
I would have to say the majority of my stuff get's done 1 pass but 2 pass has "saved" me on a few occassions.

Jeff Harper · November 7th, 2011, 09:31 AM

Just a word of caution for those considering HDLink. I just watched a DVD I burned, terrible flickering. "How could this be?" I asked myself. Especially upset because I just burned 10 copies, instead of testing first.

Apparently something is off in my project properties. I'm re-rendering now to find the cause. Nice intermediate is no guarantee of perfection, as I have just been reminded!

In my defense, I make Bluray versions and DVD versions of all my videos now, and I sometimes forget maybe one little setting here or there when I am changing project properties, and bam, I get a bad DVD, and this is a classic case.

Jeff Harper · November 7th, 2011, 12:24 PM

Yep, project properties were set to Blend Fields instead of none, can't believe I missed that.

I have to admit, I did overblow the comparison of my DVDs to Bluray. I just watched the Bluray version of the same video, it is much nicer. I think the primary reason my DVDs look nice is likely due to the large sensors in my camera, which really makes a lot of sense.

Eric Kruis · November 7th, 2011, 09:57 PM

Thanks guys for all your advice.

I burned a few dvd's today and they do look much better than the day I started this thread. The bit-rate changes going to variable really helped. Also in the render as dialog box I choose lower field first. In the project dialog box I went with lower field first, and interpolate. I am still not quite sure what all of the settings mean but I am making some progress. I can't wait to start authoring to BluRay to take advantage of the AVCHD picture quality.

Again thanks,

Eric

November 5th, 2011, 07:27 PM	#16
Eric Kruis Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Windsor Canada Posts: 48	Re: 1080i to dvd looks like VHS Seth, I do have a feeling that compression/recompression has something to do with my issues. I just don't know enough yet to set the proper settings. The default templates look much worse than any renders I have done from mini-dv footage. But, am I right to assume that shooting HD footage and authoring to DVD should give me a better picture than shooting in SD and authoring to DVD? Otherwise, why do people even bother to shoot HD unless they are all authoring to Blu_ray'? I have noticed that my static shots look decent, but as soon as their is a camera pan or moving object, it looks brutal. Could that be a hint to the problem? ie. compression, interlacing, etc? I have attached a screen grab of what a pan looks like on a finished render. Lots of jagged lines, jittery picture. Again, thanks everyone for your suggestions. Keep them coming! Attached Thumbnails

November 5th, 2011, 10:43 PM	#17
Don Bloom Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,609	Re: 1080i to dvd looks like VHS When rendering to MPG2 Vegas Render As defaults to 8, 6, and 192,000. Set the low number to 2,000,000, leave the top number at 8,000,000 and work with the middle or Average number to fit the amount of time the video project fills on the timeline. those numbers will work for project length upto 70 minutes. If you don't set the rates correctly IE too high for the size of the project DVDA will recompress the video and since it's already be done once when it get recompressed it will look pretty bad. Edwards newletter of June 2003 Vol 1 No. 7 has a bitrate chart on page 2. It's my bible for setting bitrates. Give that a try and see how it works but you need to start with a clean project, IOW nothing that has been compressed. Start with the VEG file then render away and see how it comes out in DVDA. __________________ What do I know? I'm just a video-O-grafer. Don

November 5th, 2011, 11:25 PM	#18
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: 1080i to dvd looks like VHS Seth, excellent point, and good catch. Eric, what Seth points out is entirely correct. If you are rendering your files and they are non-DVDA compliant, DVDA will recompress them, often not to well. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

November 6th, 2011, 08:06 AM	#19
Eric Kruis Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Windsor Canada Posts: 48	Re: 1080i to dvd looks like VHS Ok, I will try the settings Don recommends and look up Edward Troxel's bit rate chart. However, do I still choose the DVDA NTSC widescreen template, and then just choose Custom, and adjust settings for variable bit rate? Thanks so much, Eric

November 6th, 2011, 08:13 AM	#20
Don Bloom Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,609	Re: 1080i to dvd looks like VHS Eric, Short answer YES! Custom is your friend. I almost always use VBR (1 or 2 pass depending on content) set the Average number depending on the length of the project according to Edwards BR chart and I always use AC3 audio. It is compressed but allows for a higher BR for the video than PCM audio and frankly to my old ears there is no difference in quality in audio for the finished product. See how it works out and let us know. __________________ What do I know? I'm just a video-O-grafer. Don

November 6th, 2011, 06:57 PM	#22
Richard Davidson Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: McAllen Texas Posts: 85	Re: 1080i to dvd looks like VHS Jeff, my best guess is that HDLink has been changed to Neoscene from reading on their website. The cost is $129, does that sound about right?

November 6th, 2011, 07:14 PM	#23
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: 1080i to dvd looks like VHS No, sadly. Neoscene will not resize. HDLink and was a part of NeoHD; it had cost $499, I think the new one is a studio thingy name, and HD Link is a part of that. As an example, I often take 1440xX1080i resize it to 720p, to match my three 720p cameras, and it matches wonderfully, no deinterlacing articfacts, nothing, it is always perfect. My DVDs look so good I'd put mine up against a Bluray, they look that good. Currently, I shoot 1080i and I deinterlace and resize with HD Link, but as mentioned I resize to 720p and edit with that and it too makes wonderful DVDs. Cineform can be a complete pain until you get the workflow down, but once you do, you are golden. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

November 6th, 2011, 08:53 PM	#25
Richard Davidson Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: McAllen Texas Posts: 85	Re: 1080i to dvd looks like VHS Now I see the HDLink in the Neo package, $299

November 7th, 2011, 08:02 AM	#27
Don Bloom Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,609	Re: 1080i to dvd looks like VHS David, Sure. For most everything I do be it a wedding or a seminar I use 1 pass. What I have found is that 1 pass does a really nice job for those types of things. Even for wedding receptions dancing, 1 pass is quite good and since it's so dark and I cut pretty much all of my moves from one end of the dance floor to the other and most of my pans sweeping the floor from one subject to another 1 pass seems to work quite well. If I'm doing something with a lot of fast movement in particular sports, football or basketball in particular, I more likely than not use 2 pass since it's difficult to cut around pans which is where I have found the interlacing shows the most. I would have to say the majority of my stuff get's done 1 pass but 2 pass has "saved" me on a few occassions. __________________ What do I know? I'm just a video-O-grafer. Don

November 7th, 2011, 09:31 AM	#28
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: 1080i to dvd looks like VHS Just a word of caution for those considering HDLink. I just watched a DVD I burned, terrible flickering. "How could this be?" I asked myself. Especially upset because I just burned 10 copies, instead of testing first. Apparently something is off in my project properties. I'm re-rendering now to find the cause. Nice intermediate is no guarantee of perfection, as I have just been reminded! In my defense, I make Bluray versions and DVD versions of all my videos now, and I sometimes forget maybe one little setting here or there when I am changing project properties, and bam, I get a bad DVD, and this is a classic case. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

November 7th, 2011, 12:24 PM	#29
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: 1080i to dvd looks like VHS Yep, project properties were set to Blend Fields instead of none, can't believe I missed that. I have to admit, I did overblow the comparison of my DVDs to Bluray. I just watched the Bluray version of the same video, it is much nicer. I think the primary reason my DVDs look nice is likely due to the large sensors in my camera, which really makes a lot of sense. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

November 7th, 2011, 09:57 PM	#30
Eric Kruis Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Windsor Canada Posts: 48	Re: 1080i to dvd looks like VHS Thanks guys for all your advice. I burned a few dvd's today and they do look much better than the day I started this thread. The bit-rate changes going to variable really helped. Also in the render as dialog box I choose lower field first. In the project dialog box I went with lower field first, and interpolate. I am still not quite sure what all of the settings mean but I am making some progress. I can't wait to start authoring to BluRay to take advantage of the AVCHD picture quality. Again thanks, Eric