Need recommendations for a fast scratch drive at DVinfo.net

Jeff Harper · August 6th, 2011, 09:32 AM

Until I lost my project today (it just disappeared, video files and all) I was running 3 drives in RAID 0 and getting getting really great timeline performance when editing HD multicam shoots, up to four cams at a time.

However, the controller is bad, or one of the drives is bad, I really don't know, or want to know what happened, I'm ditching it all. I've had intermittent issues before and suspect the controller, but I'm not sure and don't have time to find out. The issue is too intermittent to determine with certainty quickly.

A new controller for conventional SATA II drives like mine, a good one is VERY expensive, and I'm wondering if there is a single drive that might equal the performance. I don't think the newer SSD drives are that fast, are they?

I know that SSDs are are great for OS, but are they fast enough for using as a high performance scratch drive? I know nothing about these drives, so I'm starting from scratch.

Any help from someone with experience using fast drives as scratch drives would be appreciated. A single Velociraptor is NOT fast enough, been there done that, WD Blacks are about as as good, and I've been running three of them in RAID 0 (older models not the newer disabled ones) and that's the kind of speed I would like.

Adam Stanislav · August 6th, 2011, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

I really don't know

I bet Spinrite would know. And would fix it.

GRC|Hard drive data recovery software

Phil Lee · August 6th, 2011, 12:10 PM

Hi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

Until I lost my project today (it just disappeared, video files and all) I was running 3 drives in RAID 0 and getting getting really great timeline performance when editing HD multicam shoots, up to four cams at a time.

However, the controller is bad, or one of the drives is bad, I really don't know, or want to know what happened, I'm ditching it all. I've had intermittent issues before and suspect the controller, but I'm not sure and don't have time to find out. The issue is too intermittent to determine with certainty quickly.

A new controller for conventional SATA II drives like mine, a good one is VERY expensive, and I'm wondering if there is a single drive that might equal the performance. I don't think the newer SSD drives are that fast, are they?

I know that SSDs are are great for OS, but are they fast enough for using as a high performance scratch drive? I know nothing about these drives, so I'm starting from scratch.

Any help from someone with experience using fast drives as scratch drives would be appreciated. A single Velociraptor is NOT fast enough, been there done that, WD Blacks are about as as good, and I've been running three of them in RAID 0 (older models not the newer disabled ones) and that's the kind of speed I would like.

SSDs are not that well suited to that sort of use as they have extra overheads in re-using space. You might get around this if you use one oversized to your needs and your system has opportunity to "trim" the SSD, basically enough idle time to prepare already used parts to be re-written to in the fastest time.

The other issue is wear, as each memory location can only be written to so many times before it stops working reliably, although quite possibly in practice it will out live your use of it in all but the most demanding applications.

Regards

Phil

Jeff Harper · August 6th, 2011, 12:27 PM

Adam, Spinrite is data recovery software, I have a very good software program already, thank you. I do not need to recover the files, I had them backed up twice. Spinrite also does not appear to be a diagnostic program, which is what you allude to, thanks anyway.

Thanks Phil, you have vefified what I have just read. Apparently not much has changed with the essential nature of SSDs since there early days, other than reilability and speed, which are apparently have improved greatly.

I'm going to reformat the drives, take out a drive from the array, for kicks, and see what happens.

Justin Molush · August 6th, 2011, 02:03 PM

I have used Western Digital 10k rpm Raptors as scratch space before and they were dead reliable for about 4 years... eventually the needles started making a bunch of noise, but never failed. I sent them in and got it replaced no questions asked. So through intensive use, and 4 years in having perfect customer service I would recommend them.

SSDs are kind of new, and I dont know if I would use them for an enterprise solution yet (I dont know the scale you are operating on).

Adam Stanislav · August 6th, 2011, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

Adam, Spinrite is data recovery software

No, it isn’t. It is disk maintenance software. It checks disks for errors, including errors no other software can detect. And it fixes those errors. It can even reformat the entire disk without deleting the data on the disk.

It is independent on the operating system (you reboot the computer to Spinrite, then reboot it back to your OS when done).

Gerald Webb · August 6th, 2011, 09:11 PM

I've got 7 tracks of 90min 1080p Cineform files on 1 Seagate 7200rpm 1TB drive right now doing a multiple cam edit. It's keeping up with all cuts and a few cross fades so far, even a few strobing effects between cams.
I did format it before starting so it's all on the quickest part of the disc.
I can't say I can see a difference between this drive and my 2x raid 0 Raptors.

Jeff Harper · August 6th, 2011, 11:50 PM

Thanks for clarifying Adam. The Spinrite website was most difficult to siphon through. but you're right, it's not what I thought it was.

I went ahead and diaganosed the problem, weird drive. I was ready to throw the controller out with all the drives. I had three drives get weird on me in the last 12 months (2 Velociraptors and a Samsung) and now this one (WD Black). I've never lost drives like this before, but they were all pretty old. They all came out when they were newly released. I'm particularly bummed to have lost a WD Black, those are my favorite drives. I do know how to salvage them, on my own using Windows, but I'm always leery after

Anyway, I'll stick with my current RAID thing. I suspect my controller is responsible for corrupting the drives somehow. All the weirdness happens to RAID drives running off the Adaptec controller for some reason.

Jeff Harper · August 6th, 2011, 11:55 PM

Gerald I agree, little to no difference with 2x RAID, I only see the improvement with three drives. Four is amazing, three is pretty good. I've lost two of my four and the difference is disappointing, I need to find two more good drives to put in the array.

Magnus Helander · August 9th, 2011, 08:44 AM

We have Cheetah 15k in the RAID units, they deliver, and also cost a little bit more...
Enterprise Hard Drives | Cheetah | Constellation | Seagate
But very nice for a scratch disk...

/m

Jeff Harper · August 9th, 2011, 08:59 AM

Magnus, probably the best recommendation for a fast drive. I used Cheetah SCSI 10K as far back as 1998, and they were crazy fast, and very reliable. I have been fussing with these SATA drive for years now and am absolutely sick of them, everything from the cheesy connectors to the low reliability.

Currently I have everything back in order for now, but will I will return to the Cheetahs. Do you recommend a particular brand of controller?

Magnus Helander · August 10th, 2011, 04:52 PM

We bought turn-key systems, and they had ARECA raid cards, not sure about the exact model, possibly 1680 -
/m

Larry Reavis · August 11th, 2011, 09:23 PM

I agree with others - skip the SSD for this application. I love mine for boot, but the boot speed results mainly because of the near-zero latency when seeking the myriad files that Windows accesses while booting.

But their write speed is nothing spectacular, and they still are unreliable. Intel replaced mine, no questions asked, when a nearby lightning strike hit it. It was the electro-magnetic field that did it in, not a surge on the power line (no other component was affected in my computer, and I do use a 100% full-time UPS).

Jeff Harper · August 30th, 2011, 09:51 PM

I am awaiting three new 15K.7 Cheetahs SAS drives and controller that will arrive tomorrow. Magnus, thanks for your mentioning the SAS drives.

I've learned a lot about raid controllers and SATA drives since I started the thread. I abandoned 10K SCSI drives when I got into video production, due to the cost. Everything was going SATA anyway, but I've never been knocked out by even the fastest SATA drives running in raid 0.

I have bit the bullet. The cost of three drives and the controller was high, but it's a great feeling to be going back to enterprise class drives. Now for dealing with the heat. The Cheetahs run very hot.

Manus, does your case have HD cooling fans?

Magnus Helander · August 31st, 2011, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Magnus, does your case have HD cooling fans?

The server case has something like eight or ten fans, I think it is this one...
Supermicro | Products | Chassis | 2U | SC213LTQ-R720LPB

It's like having a 747 waiting for takeoff in the server-room
/m

August 6th, 2011, 09:32 AM	#1
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Need recommendations for a fast scratch drive Until I lost my project today (it just disappeared, video files and all) I was running 3 drives in RAID 0 and getting getting really great timeline performance when editing HD multicam shoots, up to four cams at a time. However, the controller is bad, or one of the drives is bad, I really don't know, or want to know what happened, I'm ditching it all. I've had intermittent issues before and suspect the controller, but I'm not sure and don't have time to find out. The issue is too intermittent to determine with certainty quickly. A new controller for conventional SATA II drives like mine, a good one is VERY expensive, and I'm wondering if there is a single drive that might equal the performance. I don't think the newer SSD drives are that fast, are they? I know that SSDs are are great for OS, but are they fast enough for using as a high performance scratch drive? I know nothing about these drives, so I'm starting from scratch. Any help from someone with experience using fast drives as scratch drives would be appreciated. A single Velociraptor is NOT fast enough, been there done that, WD Blacks are about as as good, and I've been running three of them in RAID 0 (older models not the newer disabled ones) and that's the kind of speed I would like. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

August 6th, 2011, 12:27 PM	#4
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Need recommendations for a fast scratch drive Adam, Spinrite is data recovery software, I have a very good software program already, thank you. I do not need to recover the files, I had them backed up twice. Spinrite also does not appear to be a diagnostic program, which is what you allude to, thanks anyway. Thanks Phil, you have vefified what I have just read. Apparently not much has changed with the essential nature of SSDs since there early days, other than reilability and speed, which are apparently have improved greatly. I'm going to reformat the drives, take out a drive from the array, for kicks, and see what happens. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

August 6th, 2011, 02:03 PM	#5
Justin Molush Major Player Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Montreal Posts: 388	Re: Need recommendations for a fast scratch drive I have used Western Digital 10k rpm Raptors as scratch space before and they were dead reliable for about 4 years... eventually the needles started making a bunch of noise, but never failed. I sent them in and got it replaced no questions asked. So through intensive use, and 4 years in having perfect customer service I would recommend them. SSDs are kind of new, and I dont know if I would use them for an enterprise solution yet (I dont know the scale you are operating on).

August 6th, 2011, 09:11 PM	#7
Gerald Webb Trustee Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Central Coast Australia Posts: 1,046	Re: Need recommendations for a fast scratch drive I've got 7 tracks of 90min 1080p Cineform files on 1 Seagate 7200rpm 1TB drive right now doing a multiple cam edit. It's keeping up with all cuts and a few cross fades so far, even a few strobing effects between cams. I did format it before starting so it's all on the quickest part of the disc. I can't say I can see a difference between this drive and my 2x raid 0 Raptors. __________________ http://vimeo.com/livewebvideo

August 6th, 2011, 11:50 PM	#8
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Need recommendations for a fast scratch drive Thanks for clarifying Adam. The Spinrite website was most difficult to siphon through. but you're right, it's not what I thought it was. I went ahead and diaganosed the problem, weird drive. I was ready to throw the controller out with all the drives. I had three drives get weird on me in the last 12 months (2 Velociraptors and a Samsung) and now this one (WD Black). I've never lost drives like this before, but they were all pretty old. They all came out when they were newly released. I'm particularly bummed to have lost a WD Black, those are my favorite drives. I do know how to salvage them, on my own using Windows, but I'm always leery after Anyway, I'll stick with my current RAID thing. I suspect my controller is responsible for corrupting the drives somehow. All the weirdness happens to RAID drives running off the Adaptec controller for some reason. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

August 6th, 2011, 11:55 PM	#9
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Need recommendations for a fast scratch drive Gerald I agree, little to no difference with 2x RAID, I only see the improvement with three drives. Four is amazing, three is pretty good. I've lost two of my four and the difference is disappointing, I need to find two more good drives to put in the array. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

August 9th, 2011, 08:44 AM	#10
Magnus Helander Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Sweden Posts: 221	Re: Need recommendations for a fast scratch drive We have Cheetah 15k in the RAID units, they deliver, and also cost a little bit more... Enterprise Hard Drives \| Cheetah \| Constellation \| Seagate But very nice for a scratch disk... /m __________________ Magnus Helander, Crossmediageek on G+

August 9th, 2011, 08:59 AM	#11
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Need recommendations for a fast scratch drive Magnus, probably the best recommendation for a fast drive. I used Cheetah SCSI 10K as far back as 1998, and they were crazy fast, and very reliable. I have been fussing with these SATA drive for years now and am absolutely sick of them, everything from the cheesy connectors to the low reliability. Currently I have everything back in order for now, but will I will return to the Cheetahs. Do you recommend a particular brand of controller? __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

August 10th, 2011, 04:52 PM	#12
Magnus Helander Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Sweden Posts: 221	Re: Need recommendations for a fast scratch drive We bought turn-key systems, and they had ARECA raid cards, not sure about the exact model, possibly 1680 - /m __________________ Magnus Helander, Crossmediageek on G+

August 11th, 2011, 09:23 PM	#13
Larry Reavis Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Encinitas California Posts: 121	Re: Need recommendations for a fast scratch drive I agree with others - skip the SSD for this application. I love mine for boot, but the boot speed results mainly because of the near-zero latency when seeking the myriad files that Windows accesses while booting. But their write speed is nothing spectacular, and they still are unreliable. Intel replaced mine, no questions asked, when a nearby lightning strike hit it. It was the electro-magnetic field that did it in, not a surge on the power line (no other component was affected in my computer, and I do use a 100% full-time UPS).

August 30th, 2011, 09:51 PM	#14
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Need recommendations for a fast scratch drive I am awaiting three new 15K.7 Cheetahs SAS drives and controller that will arrive tomorrow. Magnus, thanks for your mentioning the SAS drives. I've learned a lot about raid controllers and SATA drives since I started the thread. I abandoned 10K SCSI drives when I got into video production, due to the cost. Everything was going SATA anyway, but I've never been knocked out by even the fastest SATA drives running in raid 0. I have bit the bullet. The cost of three drives and the controller was high, but it's a great feeling to be going back to enterprise class drives. Now for dealing with the heat. The Cheetahs run very hot. Manus, does your case have HD cooling fans? __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."