What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get It.

[Brian Drysdale]

The Sony manual is difficult to read and the terms used get confusing, even if you know the basic processes.

[Leslie Wand]

i really think this is a pointless exercise.....

vegas will NEVER be considered a pro tool until it incorporates, at a minimum, comprehensive edl and time code management, (let alone other collaborative features).

the pro market's orientation towards avid / ppro / fcp (whose poor fanboi's are now discovering the its pitfalls) stem from their basic collaborative and media management facilities. vegas can't even export an industry standard cmx edl, and media management (in the form of mm) is simply laughable!

that said, for the event and indie producer vegas, when combined with any, or a combination of plugins from boris, genarts, newblue, etc., offers a phenomenal, in house, one stop post-production solution.

i don't see scs being interested in pursuing the (relatively small) pro market (after all, sony's broadcast division has long spruked avid as it's preferred nle), and i'm sure, judging from the rapid introduction of 3d into vegas rather than a serious rewrite of code to get away from the almost archaic vfw, only goes to prove that their target is the high end consumer / event videographer.

my hopes are that they get rid of the 'serious' remaining bugs, such as random media replacement, out of memory problems, and as mentioned, doing away with vfw once and for all....

[Marc Salvatore]

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

I am suspecting that Vegas biggest detraction is the lack of actual training and reliance on other to provide training.

I agree. Take a look at Adobe TV and all of the free tutorials. I think Sony has missed out on a lot of users over the years by not showing them how to use the program through abundant online content. Pro Type Titler is a perfect example. Some of the worst documentation I've seen in Vegas and it's one of the more difficult parts of Vegas to learn.

Marc

[Ian Stark]

Originally Posted by Leslie Wand

for the event and indie producer vegas, when combined with any, or a combination of plugins from boris, genarts, newblue, etc., offers a phenomenal, in house, one stop post-production solution.

i don't see scs being interested in pursuing the (relatively small) pro market

Right on the money, afaic. Events & weddings, indie houses, one stop production shops (like me now), one man bands (like I was), high end consumer - that's where Vegas is best suited. (Sony will presumably court broadcasters with Sonaps.)

[Chris Barcellos]

In another post, I talked about an FCP 7 user that I had at my edit facility, in which we were performing a music video edit with Vegas. He was amazed at how I was dragging and dropping multiple formats and framerates of footage on the time line, keying from the time line and adding effect to each, and generally rushing through the edit so quickly.

Recently I spoke with him again. He said he had just started working with FCP X. He said that it was a lot more like working with Vegas, and he felt that it was actually a blessing to him in terms of ease of use.

I have no idea why EDL is so important to some, and what the issue is with "media management" IN fact, I have never used Vegas media manager. But I am sure that is because of what was said above, I don't really have to worry about working with anyone else, and I am a one man show. In the event I have project going with another Vegas user, we simply exchange the raw files, and I can then send .veg files to him. I also use stand alone drives that I can physically move to another computer system.

[David Jimerson]

You need a real EDL if, say, you want to send your project to someone working with Pro Tools, which is a common enough thing. Vegas's audio tools are very good, but it's NOT Pro Tools.

[Marc Salvatore]

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

and what the issue is with "media management" IN fact, I have never used Vegas media manager.

You're obviously not editing projects with 2500 clips like I am right now. It's all a matter of the types of projects a person edits. The Project media bin in Vegas completely chokes when using large numbers of clips. Media manager is the only solution.

[Chris Barcellos]

I have probably cut projects with 300 clips or so to work through. My process is certainly different. I tend to edit projects in to disctinct sections or scenes, each in vegas edit. Then, I pull those edits(.veg files), or rendered files from them, into a final master edit. Seems like that would make it manageable, even in a feature film.

[Leslie Wand]

hi chris,

if you were editing a feature film you would generally be doing so with a great many other people involved; grading, audio, fx, neg matching, etc., etc., etc.,

no matter how hard you try, vegas isn't even in the running as a 'pro' nle. yes, it's a superb stand alone one, and yes, if everyone you need works with vegas you can exchange veggies, but i don't know of many pro audio people who don't use protools, nor graders who don't, at a minimum, use avid.

it's absolutely wishful thinking to believe vegas will ever develop into a collaborative professional nle - i (along with a great many others) have been asking for vegas to spit out just a simple cmx edl since (in my case) ver 4. it hasn't happened, and it isn't likely to.

learn to live with the greatest event / indie nle around and accept it's glaring limitations in certain professional environments.

btw. this isn't meant as a flame, but simple exasperation with many users who would like to believe vegas SHOULD be more widely used in professional circles when it is patently obvious to anyone who works in such circles that it (in it's present form) wouldn't even get out of the starting gate.

and yes, your workflow matches a great many other users, due solely to the inherent limitations in vegas. heck, even it's bins are almost beyond useless.....

[Brian Drysdale]

I think Sony saw a large market for people who do everything themselves and addressed that market. Not going for the higher end professional market isn't a problem because they'll have a large customer base amongst the consumer and prosumer market who want a value for money product. That's not to say that a lone film maker couldn't make a broadcast programme or a feature film using Vegas, but it's not designed for use on more complex collaborative workflows because most people in their market don't need it.

Just looking through the media search you can see that they're not aiming at the pro market because they don't include slate or scene numbers in the search field. These may seem old fashioned, but non film productions also use them.

Sony may go for the higher end market in the future, but I suspect the cost of Vegas could drift up as they found themselves going for system integration features that the pros and facility houses need for larger operations.

[Chris Barcellos]

I agree with both Leslie and Brian to this degree: Sony Vegas deternined a long time ago, as FCP X seems bent on doing now, that profitability was in the single seat non-collaberative user, where the complaints we are seeing here just don't arise.

If the inference is intended, I don't agree that you can say that Sony Vegas users can be deemed non-professional or that you can't get professional level results out of it. The implication seems to be that you are not professional unless you use a certain sound editing system in a certain way, or can send your project directly to another editor or processing sysem. Out of this whole thread, it really looks like the primary issue being raised is collaberative ability.

And if as a professional, you don't need that, then the workflow advantages that some like in Vegas may make it worth it. We are in a time when one or two persons can do it all, and frankly, that seems to be the future for a great many productions. Do we call that non-professional ? I guess you can- but its really just a matter of semantics.

What I think really bothers most so called "professionals" about modern editing capabilities is that kids just out of grammer school or high school are making some pretty amazing stuff, using these non-compliant tools. This threatens those who over the years have learned a time tested system that is now in danger of being dumped as NLEs are redesigned. Not having been there myself, I am not missing. it.

[David Jimerson]

Chris, while you may be right about Sony's motivations, I think the rest of what you say is both a bit naive and insulting.

Of course, I suppose it depends on your threshold for "professional level" results. I can tell you this -- for my own threshold, "two people" can't do it all, not even "reality"-type stuff. That gives you a cameraman and possibly a guy with a mic (though most two-man bands neglect that entirely). Can they make "acceptable" video? Depends on who's doing the accepting.

Now, as for your "perception" about what "really bothers" professionals? Come on. "Not having been there yourself," I don't think you should be so presumptuous. It's just insulting. The tools which professionals use don't exist just to stroke egos. They exist because they have real uses and real benefits -- else they wouldn't exist.

Now, as for one-man owner-operators and independent, self-contained production houses, Vegas still doesn't support a huge part of that market -- Panasonic P2 users.

[Chris Barcellos]

David:

Sorry if I insulted anyone. Okay, I admit my reference to a feature film may be pushing it a bit (though Robert Rodriquez may not think so) but I think you are assuming that event shooters, and commercial makers aren't professionals. That seems a bit naive and unfair to me.

[David Jimerson]

Chris, I didn't say anything like that. (Of course, very few commercial shooters are two-man crews.)

[Chris Barcellos]

Point is that there are a lot of pros who do one man editing projects not relying on outside services. And in that case, it would seem Vegas with plug in additions and perhaps Cineform is a reasonable tool.