What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get It.

Brian Drysdale · July 12th, 2011, 05:13 PM

Makes sense on longer form pieces.

Lightworks seems to be in transition from a proprietary system to the final open source program, so your input/output options currently seem to be limited until the new arrangements can be put into place.

Chris Barcellos · July 13th, 2011, 12:51 PM

Re: Lightworks: Interestingly it handles the Canon footgage fine. It also takes Cineform converted avi's too.

A couple of things are a bit disturbing. You seem to be able to lose an edit or a bin of footage pretty easily, unless you take affirmative steps to assure save. Seems like me the default should be saving "on", with an option to delete.

It is hard to adjust to this cut and insert process, after working so easily with Vegas.

Frans Meijer · July 13th, 2011, 03:24 PM

You only have to name the bin to make it and it's contents persist. Alternatively, anything you do use from a transient (non-permanent) bin will not be removed. Cleverly useful actually.

Chris Barcellos · July 13th, 2011, 03:29 PM

I'm sure the whole process makes clear sense to a real film editor. Cutting and trimming clips seems to work like they want to preserve that actually snip out a section and then drag the remaining footage to join in the edit. Doesn't seem to have a ripple effect that I have seen yet. Just makes my appreciation for Vegas grow so much more.

Brian Drysdale · July 13th, 2011, 04:49 PM

I think Lightworks involves a different way of working compared to Vegas, which I do tend to find fiddly when things can "slip" so easily when just working in the timeline. An example of a "slip" being that you find you've got a fade instead of cut... I guess that comes from the program's sound editing roots.

You may find their term for ripple is different, rather like they use stripview instead of timeline.

The layers of logging/filing organisation in Lightworks is impressive. Overall, I'd say it's closer to Avid or FCP than Vegas and I gather it's the console (currently not available) that's the really nice thing to use when editing with Lightworks.

Chris Barcellos · July 13th, 2011, 05:17 PM

For about a week I tried real film editing is 70s, using Super 8 footage. Seemed so tedious. It would have helped to have a good camera and a decent editing system. I stayed with still cameras for any creative bent I might have. Fast forward 25 years to 97 or so, and I discovered video and digital editing.... But missing was all that history in between that would have left me with an appreciation for the way many continue to feel they want to edit. I don't have a feel for the need for editing decision lists, etc. I worked first Pinnacle Studio, then went to Premiere Pro with an editing board. Worked with that for about 5 years, all the time, wondering why things were done certain way. As I look at it now, so much of that was due to the way physical film had been edited, and an attempt to carry a lot of the techniques and traditions forward. Later when I started in on Vegas I felt like I was freed from some of those imposed restrictions, the same process that others feel comforting. I think this really explains what is going on with FCP X and the growing popularity of Vegas. The older style is being supplanted by them in favor of what might be more acceptable to the the upcoming generation.

Brian Drysdale · July 13th, 2011, 05:58 PM

There are demands for various versions of a film during an edit as various producers and executives throw in their half pence worth. Any new editing programs need to highly capable in dealing with this and be quick in allowing the editor make changes within a tight schedule. I think these are the requirements that any professional NLE programs need to address over and above if you edit in the timeline or in a trim or edit box.

The requirements for even an advanced consumer are rather different, which is why there could be a division in the two markets.

NLEs are perhaps closer to 16mm or 35mm editing with the magnetic sound tracks than Super 8 and the creative process.is the same, just the mechanics are different.

BTW Looking through the listed features, ripple is available on Lightworks.

You could try editing on its timeline, I suspect there are quite a few things that can be done the same way as with Vegas, although pushing different buttons. The rather nice thing I like is you can inch though the shots using the wheel on the mouse, which on Vegas seems to just expand or contract the scale of the timeline.

Traditionally, professional editors tend to stick to the NLE they're used to... I guess they don't want those "how do I do this" moments with a director or producer looking over their shoulder.

The Lightworks appears to be a work in progress; http://lightworksbeta.com/index.php?...112&Itemid=246

Chris Barcellos · July 15th, 2011, 10:09 AM

The potential of Linux Lightworks support is kind of interesting to me. I ran a box for a while with KdenLive, and saw that open source is really progressing. Its kind of fun to run on an open source OS, using all open source tools from Gimp through Open Office. We are at a point where with a little dedication, you could actually outfit a decent edit bay with a new box and software for a grand..... Obviously. Something to consider for those not collaberating in their work with others.

Adam Stanislav · July 17th, 2011, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

So I am curious what others more familiar with these other NLEs have to say about what we are missing in Vegas.

Well, I am not that familiar with them anymore, but one thing I am missing in Vegas is the ability to use garbage mattes without having to scratch my left ear with my right foot. To just combine two tracks according to a matte on a third track. Try searching for the word “matte” in the Vegas help file. You won’t find anything.

You could always multiply the matte with one of the tracks. But what about the other track? You cannot just add it to the result of the multiplication. You could multiply it by the negative of the matte, I suppose, but how would you add the result to the track multiplied by the mask itself?

The only way I can think of is to nest projects: In one you multiply a track by the matte, in the other you multiply the other by the negative of the matte, then you nest one project within another and add them. But doing that is like flying from London to New York through Singapore.

Edward Troxel · July 18th, 2011, 06:42 AM

Adam, try this:

Track 1: B/W Mask. You must set the track to "Multiply Mask" compositing mode. Add a "Sony Mask Generator" effect to either the mask or the track - it doesn't matter which.

Track 2: Video to show through the white areas. This track must be a "child" to track 1

Track 3: Video to show through the black areas. This is just a standard track.

I explained the full process in Vol 2 #5 of my newsletters.

Adam Stanislav · July 18th, 2011, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Troxel

Adam, try this:

Nice! Thanks! I always assumed the Mask Generator was a plugin to draw masks with and never looked at it.

Gosh, I have been using SV for years and still do not know many things about it. I wish there was a really detailed book that explained everything about Vegas. Maybe that is what “They” have that Vegas does not. If even diehard Vegas users do not realize all the power Vegas offers, it is hard for those outside to see how good Vegas is.

Brian Drysdale · July 18th, 2011, 09:54 AM

Douglas Spotted Eagle has a series of books on the various versions of Vegas, the one I have seems to cover a vast range of stuff in about 500 pages.

Chris Barcellos · July 18th, 2011, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Stanislav

Nice! Thanks! I always assumed the Mask Generator was a plugin to draw masks with and never looked at it.

Gosh, I have been using SV for years and still do not know many things about it. I wish there was a really detailed book that explained everything about Vegas. Maybe that is what “They” have that Vegas does not. If even diehard Vegas users do not realize all the power Vegas offers, it is hard for those outside to see how good Vegas is.

I am suspecting that Vegas biggest detraction is the lack of actual training and reliance on other to provide training.

Adam Stanislav · July 18th, 2011, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

I am suspecting that Vegas biggest detraction is the lack of actual training and reliance on other to provide training.

Yes, exactly. I never understood why the software does not come with a printed handbook. Not a reference manual (the online help covers that) but a handbook that teaches you how to use all of its features. Or, if they do not want to do that, they should offer an official handbook as an extra option. Or some kind of official YouTube chanel.

I know they offer the webinars, which helps, but a systematic printed handbook would go a long way towards attracting customers.

Mark Watson · July 19th, 2011, 03:45 AM

I think the Vegas manual assumes a certain degree of familiarity with the editing process and for some, that might be sufficient. The 440 page manual for Vegas Pro 8 (included on the DVD along with the 172 page DVD Architecture manual) is very helpful, but to add a different perspective or more detailed explanation, I try to collect the DVD training videos, as there are several of them out there. Sometimes I find what I need on YouTube. The Vegas Pro 10 manual is currently available for download.

Sony Creative Software - Download: Manuals

Mark

July 12th, 2011, 05:13 PM	#61
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I Makes sense on longer form pieces. Lightworks seems to be in transition from a proprietary system to the final open source program, so your input/output options currently seem to be limited until the new arrangements can be put into place. Last edited by Brian Drysdale; July 13th, 2011 at 04:43 AM.

July 13th, 2011, 12:51 PM	#62
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I Re: Lightworks: Interestingly it handles the Canon footgage fine. It also takes Cineform converted avi's too. A couple of things are a bit disturbing. You seem to be able to lose an edit or a bin of footage pretty easily, unless you take affirmative steps to assure save. Seems like me the default should be saving "on", with an option to delete. It is hard to adjust to this cut and insert process, after working so easily with Vegas. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

July 13th, 2011, 03:24 PM	#63
Frans Meijer Regular Crew Join Date: May 2011 Location: Netherlands Posts: 37	Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I You only have to name the bin to make it and it's contents persist. Alternatively, anything you do use from a transient (non-permanent) bin will not be removed. Cleverly useful actually.

July 13th, 2011, 03:29 PM	#64
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I I'm sure the whole process makes clear sense to a real film editor. Cutting and trimming clips seems to work like they want to preserve that actually snip out a section and then drag the remaining footage to join in the edit. Doesn't seem to have a ripple effect that I have seen yet. Just makes my appreciation for Vegas grow so much more. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

July 13th, 2011, 04:49 PM	#65
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I I think Lightworks involves a different way of working compared to Vegas, which I do tend to find fiddly when things can "slip" so easily when just working in the timeline. An example of a "slip" being that you find you've got a fade instead of cut... I guess that comes from the program's sound editing roots. You may find their term for ripple is different, rather like they use stripview instead of timeline. The layers of logging/filing organisation in Lightworks is impressive. Overall, I'd say it's closer to Avid or FCP than Vegas and I gather it's the console (currently not available) that's the really nice thing to use when editing with Lightworks.

July 13th, 2011, 05:17 PM	#66
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I For about a week I tried real film editing is 70s, using Super 8 footage. Seemed so tedious. It would have helped to have a good camera and a decent editing system. I stayed with still cameras for any creative bent I might have. Fast forward 25 years to 97 or so, and I discovered video and digital editing.... But missing was all that history in between that would have left me with an appreciation for the way many continue to feel they want to edit. I don't have a feel for the need for editing decision lists, etc. I worked first Pinnacle Studio, then went to Premiere Pro with an editing board. Worked with that for about 5 years, all the time, wondering why things were done certain way. As I look at it now, so much of that was due to the way physical film had been edited, and an attempt to carry a lot of the techniques and traditions forward. Later when I started in on Vegas I felt like I was freed from some of those imposed restrictions, the same process that others feel comforting. I think this really explains what is going on with FCP X and the growing popularity of Vegas. The older style is being supplanted by them in favor of what might be more acceptable to the the upcoming generation. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

July 13th, 2011, 05:58 PM	#67
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I There are demands for various versions of a film during an edit as various producers and executives throw in their half pence worth. Any new editing programs need to highly capable in dealing with this and be quick in allowing the editor make changes within a tight schedule. I think these are the requirements that any professional NLE programs need to address over and above if you edit in the timeline or in a trim or edit box. The requirements for even an advanced consumer are rather different, which is why there could be a division in the two markets. NLEs are perhaps closer to 16mm or 35mm editing with the magnetic sound tracks than Super 8 and the creative process.is the same, just the mechanics are different. BTW Looking through the listed features, ripple is available on Lightworks. You could try editing on its timeline, I suspect there are quite a few things that can be done the same way as with Vegas, although pushing different buttons. The rather nice thing I like is you can inch though the shots using the wheel on the mouse, which on Vegas seems to just expand or contract the scale of the timeline. Traditionally, professional editors tend to stick to the NLE they're used to... I guess they don't want those "how do I do this" moments with a director or producer looking over their shoulder. The Lightworks appears to be a work in progress; http://lightworksbeta.com/index.php?...112&Itemid=246 Last edited by Brian Drysdale; July 14th, 2011 at 03:28 AM.

July 15th, 2011, 10:09 AM	#68
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I The potential of Linux Lightworks support is kind of interesting to me. I ran a box for a while with KdenLive, and saw that open source is really progressing. Its kind of fun to run on an open source OS, using all open source tools from Gimp through Open Office. We are at a point where with a little dedication, you could actually outfit a decent edit bay with a new box and software for a grand..... Obviously. Something to consider for those not collaberating in their work with others. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

July 18th, 2011, 06:42 AM	#70
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I Adam, try this: Track 1: B/W Mask. You must set the track to "Multiply Mask" compositing mode. Add a "Sony Mask Generator" effect to either the mask or the track - it doesn't matter which. Track 2: Video to show through the white areas. This track must be a "child" to track 1 Track 3: Video to show through the black areas. This is just a standard track. I explained the full process in Vol 2 #5 of my newsletters. __________________ Edward Troxel [SCVU] JETDV Scripts/Scripting Tutorials/Excalibur/Montage Magic/Newsletters

July 18th, 2011, 09:54 AM	#72
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I Douglas Spotted Eagle has a series of books on the various versions of Vegas, the one I have seems to cover a vast range of stuff in about 500 pages.

July 19th, 2011, 03:45 AM	#75
Mark Watson Major Player Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Whidbey Island Posts: 873	Re: What Do They have (FCP X and CS 5.5 or Avid) That Vegas Doesn't And Can You Get I I think the Vegas manual assumes a certain degree of familiarity with the editing process and for some, that might be sufficient. The 440 page manual for Vegas Pro 8 (included on the DVD along with the 172 page DVD Architecture manual) is very helpful, but to add a different perspective or more detailed explanation, I try to collect the DVD training videos, as there are several of them out there. Sometimes I find what I need on YouTube. The Vegas Pro 10 manual is currently available for download. Sony Creative Software - Download: Manuals Mark