HD to SD DVD, V-dub versus TMPGenc

[Brian Luce]

The method of downsizing HD to SD DVD with Virtual Dub and the Lagarith lossless codec has been discussed at length here. My problem is that, especially with Magic Bullet plug ins, I get crazy render times on my i7 desktop.
So, wondering if anyone has tried TMPGenc encoder and if you were happy with the performance/speed, particularly in comparison to Virtual Dub or Vegas's encoder. It's an affordable solution.

I haven't tried the demo yet.
TMPGEnc - Products: TMPGEnc Video Mastering Works 5

[Jeff Harper]

For those who have been dealing with this issue for years, this is indeed a tired and seemingly worn out subject in this forum, but I have only recently entered into the conversation in a meaningful way.

Brian, if you are downsizing, and deinterlacing prior to editing as I have begun doing, you might consider NeoHd, if you haven't already. It is available at Videoguys and other places for $400.

The position you are in is unfair. Vegas, as a supposedly professional editing program should handle this task with simplicity and ease.

Virtual dub method seems to be a fine, effective solution, but I found it too time consuming and complicated. The program you linked to appeared to me to be geared to consumers/hobbyists, but I could be wrong. It did not appeal to me, but I did not give it a chance either. I couldn't find much information on the TMPGenc that helped me make a decision, so I skipped it.

Pros seem to use Cineform products. The trial of NeoHd is safe and unobtrusive, important to me as I will not generally install trial software on my pc unless I'm very seriously considering the purchase.

The Cineform codecs are well known to produce great results. I am in my second week of the trial, and I find it to be relatively simple to use, with important built in options for handling 1080i and 720p footage. You will find me asking questions still about it's use, but overall it works, and works well.

Without fail no matter how I try to save money, the best solution for almost any video problem I encounter never involves the least expensive means. I was in your position and I resisted Cineform based on cost. I still cannot afford it. At some point soon I will however go ahead and pay for it, as I have wedding season about to kick off, and I cannot spend time trying to save money while trying to focus on working with clients, editing, and in my case, learning new camera equipment.

I think it was Guy McGloughlin who uses Vegas to downsize with very good results, but again, I decided that in the end, Cineform was actually going to be the easiest and most effective tool for me.

It seems after making a decision such as this one, in retrospect I was running around in circles avoiding the best solution due to cost or laziness. Vegas can do the job, but it requires more effort than I am willing to exert. Cineform HDLink (part of NeoHD) is the best overall solution, but it costs a chunk of change. Laziness won out when I decided to go with Cineform.

Good luck with whatever you choose, and please report back when you've made a decision.

I must add that Cineform, initially, has it's quirks and a short learning curve, but it seems much simpler then Virtual Dub. From what I've read, I'm under the impression that Virtual Dub method is slower than Cineform, but I could be mistaken.

[Brian Luce]

I've heard nothing but good about HD Link, it's just as shame to have to buy the entire package when all I'm after is that one component. I don't need the codec and other goodies you get for $400.

For now I'm going to research the Tmpg encoder a bit. Here's a link with a review, paired with Edius.
TmpgEnc 4 Xpress Tutorial for downscaling Edius HD to SD

[Jeff Harper]

Brian, it looks promising.

If you try it out, please let us know what you think. Are you planning/wanting to resize HD footage to SD and then edit and render out to mpeg 2 for standard DVDs?

[Chris Harding]

Hi Jeff

I seem to get rather good results by using NewBlue Upshift. (the price is way below Cineform too!!!)

I just transcode my MTS AVCHD files down to MPEG2 HDV at 50mbps and also let the software strip the interlacing too so there is no nasty problems and I end up with Progressive footage.
The files are then simply imported into Vegas and edited in HD and output to MPEG2 SD (Being in Australia I use the DVD PAL Widescreen template)

The results seem to be a lot sharper than taking the native MTS files and then letting Vegas de-interlace them for some reason.

It's a lot easier to use than VDub or TMPGenc too!!!


Chris

[Marc Salvatore]

Brian,

I usually master my HD projects in Cineform 1920x1080i and then downconvert using TMPEG 4 with very good results. It does an excellent job of downconverting using Lanczos-3.

[Brian Luce]

I've used two approaches so far,
1) Do everything in Vegas, burn in DVDA. Simple and fast, so-so results.
2) Perrone Ford method: Edit in Vegas, render a lossless AVI file (Lagarith), resize in virtual dub, import back to Vegas, render an MPEG2 video file and AC3 audio file, burn in DVDA. Works great but oh my is it slow.

So I'm seeking greener pastures. Cineform is undoubtedly great, but a little pricey. So gonna look into TMPGenc and now, thanks to this thread the New Blu option. I love New Blu software, so easy to use and reasonably priced.

[Jeff Harper]

I used Vasst Upshift, and didn't care for it. I did download New Blue's version, but am not crazy about it's rendering to m2t files. I don't have an informed reason for this, I like the idea of .avi such as HDlink or TMPGenc can produce.

I'm going to have to try TMPGenc, thanks to you Brian. I may have written it off too soon.

[Ron Evans]

Jeff, I think you will find that TMPGenc does the best downconvert and encode. Whether I am exporting from Vegas or Edius I use TMPGenc for downconvert and encode. It is easier and for me better than the VDub approach. TMPGenc Authorworks also a good program that encodes and authors in one program.

In Edius I export a Canopus HQ file but I think a lossless file from Vegas will work just as well. If source is HDV then I would just export a HDV file from Vegas for TMPGenc to use.

Ron Evans

[Jeff Harper]

Ron, I appreciate you weighing in on this conversation. The proposed workflow for my projects is to convert AVCHD files to high quality, resized avi files, then edit in Vegas and render to mpeg 2 for DVD.

Is that a workflow that TMPGenc can accomodate, batch resizing of clips to avi? Is this not the best method to achieve results for my wedding work?

[Bruce Phung]

Originally Posted by Ron Evans

Jeff, I think you will find that TMPGenc does the best downconvert and encode. Whether I am exporting from Vegas or Edius I use TMPGenc for downconvert and encode. It is easier and for me better than the VDub approach. TMPGenc Authorworks also a good program that encodes and authors in one program.

In Edius I export a Canopus HQ file but I think a lossless file from Vegas will work just as well. If source is HDV then I would just export a HDV file from Vegas for TMPGenc to use.

Ron Evans

I am very happy with the results using VDub to resized/Deinterlaced for DVD. Reading your post made me want to try TMGenc. Some questions if you don't mind . Am I doing this right?

1) My master file HD rendered in Vegas, Cineform AVI 1920x1080
2) Import Cineform 1920x1080 to TMPGenc
3) Set TMPGenc properties for DVD setting that is?

Or better yet, can you list your wokflow here?

Thank you.

[Ron Evans]

I would stay native AVCHD and edit in Vegas. Then export a lossless avi ( or high quality of some form. If you have Edius on your PC you could use the HQ codec) to TMPGenc for downconversion and encode to MPEG2 for DVD. Then use this file to author. This way gives you the option of producing a Bluray as well a SD DVD with the same file.

Ron Evans

[Ron Evans]

Bruce that is the workflow.

I do not have Cineform on my PC at the moment so cannot confirm full compatibility in TMPGenc. However it should work. There is a 14 day trial so you can try to see if it works for you.TMPGEnc - Products: TMPGEnc Video Mastering Works 5 This is the latest T5 I still have version T4. Process is fairly straight forward. Start project> import file>set output target> encode settings> set directory for output>press START. One advantage is at the encode settings window one can adjust the data rate and see exactly how this is filling the disc. I use VBR, 2pass with Dolby AC3 audio for my downconversions. There are of course a lot more options that one can invoke. Filters, import markers to set i frames etc. There is also the ability to use CUDA, Sandy Bridge and Spurs engine encoders for faster encoding.

If you've worked your way through VDUB it should be very easy!!!!

Ron Evans

[Bruce Phung]

Thanks Ron. I'll give TMGEnc a try for my next DVD project just want to see any real different.

[Jeff Harper]

Ron, the original method for my workflow was suggested, and it really is a great way of doing it, for SD purposes..

On the other hand, there are occasions when I will want to make a bluray, and your workflow would accomodate both, as you say, from the same project, and no need to archive the intermediate, just delete the file rendered in Vegas and save the original footage, and I can easitly redo the intermediate, etc.

The one unfortunate consequence of this method, is I would lose the ability to add chapter markers in Vegas and have them show up in DVDA. Since I often have 20-30 chapters on the scene selections menu, that would be a bummer. I dislike doing chapter markers in DVDA, it seems to take forever.