Newbe Question 1080 30p?

[Geoffrey Chandler]

I'm fairly experienced in the ways of SD video editing with Vegas, but I'm brand new to the HD world. I am doing some test shooting with a new Canon 60D and thought I would shoot in 1080 30p as recommended as a good setting for wedding videography, but I don't see this setting in Vegas. The closest setting is 1080 60i in both the "new" dialog box and "render."

I'm confused as to how I edit and render 1080 30p.

[Geoffrey Chandler]

This is Vegas Pro 9 if that makes a difference.

[Jerry Amende]

Try this... File->New; To the right of the template will be a "folder" icon. If you hover over it, the bubble will say "Match Media Settings". Click on this icon and navigate to one of the clips you captured, click on the clip and "open". This will automagically match your project setting to your source.

Edit: As far as rendering is concerned, the answer depend on you distribution medium. Remember you can aways click the "custom" button and change the params.

Good Luck!
...Jerry

[Geoffrey Chandler]

Thank you very much. This is even more confusing than I thought it was going to be.

[Victor Wilcox]

I found it ridiculous that there's no template for 1080 30p, I started with the 1080 24p and modified the settings. You can use the "Match Media Settings" option to select a source file an use its properties for the project. But, there's still no template to render as 1080 30p. I used "Internet 1920x1080-30p" (for Sony AVC), and modified the video and audio properties (for my NX5U: Video 20,000,000 bps, Audio 48,000 Hz, 192,000 bps), then save as a custom template.

If anyone has a better method, please share.

[Garrett Low]

Simply choose the HD 1080-60i (1920x1080, 29.970 fps) template then go into project properties and under Field Order set it to None (progressive scan). That's of course assuming you're talking about 29.970 fps and not actual 30 fps. You can save this template if you want. When you render do the same thing. For whatever codec you want to render to (AVC, mpeg2, etc.) choose the 60i option and change the field order to None (progressive scan).

If the original footage is in 30p when you render, Vegas will simply keep the progressive frames in tact. Vegas will not interlace then deinterlace the footage.

If your source footage is true 30 fps (not 29.970) then simply change the framerate to 30 by typing it in. But most likely you are actually shooting 29.970fps so the built in framerates should work.

-Garrett

[Rob Wood]

"...there's no template for 1080 30p..."

there is (so far) only 1080p24 in the industry.

camcorders can capture 1080p60, and some online services use mp4 1080p24/30 for satellite or broadband internet delivery... but Blu-Ray media only goes to 1080p24 and the spec for HD broadcast is either 720p60 or 1080i60.

no doubt 1080p30/50/60 will happen... but not yet :)

-

to OP:

if you're wanting to work in source format, do as Jerry suggests...
1) go File > New
2) click the "Match Media Settings" (top right) of Project Properties window
3) a dialog box will open...
4) navigate to one of the files you intend to edit and select it

once selected, Vegas will generate Project Settings based on the media you've chosen... save the project settings as a Template for future use if you want.

[Jim Snow]

I have been shooting in 1920 x 1080, 60i. I have been considering switching to 30p. The thing that I am wondering is even though the DVD and BluRay spec don't support 30p, does it work in practical use? That is do players and TVs generally support 30p?

A couple of things I don't like about 60i is that when cropping on the time line or when downsizing to SD, the footage is first deinterlaced and then reinterlaced which damages the sharpness of the footage. With progressive, this isn't the case. Am I overlooking anything? I want the best quality footage possible.

[Garrett Low]

Jim,

As Rob noted, at present there is no support in Blu-ray for 30p. However, if your source material is progressive, creating a 60i BR when presented will actually be a 30p picture. Current TV's are capable of progressive pictures so when the interlaced frames are placed back together the picture creates the original progressive image.

To preserve your 30p source just choose a 60i frame rate. I should have mentioned in my first post that rendering to 30p is for DVD's. Creating a DVD with 30p footage does work. I do it for most of the Dance Shows I do. As I mentioned for Blu-rays you have to create 60i footage but since I shoot in 30p it comes out as progressive and you don't have the offset in the two interlaced frames that you would if you shoot 60i.

-Garrett

[Jim Snow]

Thanks Garrett, Are there any combing artifacts on BluRay when the 30P is converted to 60i? As I understand 60i interlaced, each field is separated from the other by 1/60th of a second. Even with a good conversion from 30p to 60i, isn't there some visible loss such as combing artifacts or loss of resolution?

[Garrett Low]

Nope, no combing effects or loss of resolution. Those occur when you have 60i source material and create 30p. It's due to the fact that each "1/2 frame" is created with a 1/60th of a second separation. For scenes with motion there is a noticeable shift between the two 1/2 frames creating the full frame. If you use your NLE to create a true progressive frame from the interlaced material there will be a slight loss of resolution due to the fact that it is creating a new frame from predicting the full frame from the 1/2 frames (that's the best way I can put it without going into the details of various methods).

If you start with progressive material and only render to 60i, all that is happening is each 1/60 of a second there is every other line from the progressive full frame. Then the next 1/60 frame are the other half of the same frame. When you put these back together it recreates the same progressive frame as original. Remember, with modern televisions using progressive scan, they are taking the two 1/60th interlaced frames first, creating the full frame, then progressively displaying the picture.

The key is to shoot in 30p, edit in 30p, then only render out to 60i. I've done this many times and it works great both for BR and DVD.

-Garrett

[Jim Snow]

I currently use a Sony EX1R as my primary camera. I am going to buy a Panasonic GH2 as soon as it is released. It doesn't shoot in 30p. It only shoots 24p or 60i. Is it a good idea to convert the 60i from the GH2 to 30p with Cineform (which I also use) if I am going to have the GH2 footage in the same project as my EX1R footage shot at 30p? I don't like 24p but I do want the best video quality possible.

[Garrett Low]

For me, it really depends on the content and mix of footage. I shoot primarily with an EX3 and use a Canon HV20 as a B/Backup cam. The HV20 also only shoots 60i like your GH2. Most of the time when using the HV20 it is only for short master or cutaways so when producing a 30p project I use Cineform to deinterlace and live with the slight loss of resolution. I do shoot a lot of 24p material for independent movies/documentaries and only occasionally shot 60i for some sporting events.

Cineform does a pretty good job at deinterlacing but I'd suggest that you do some test footage shooting some similar footage to your project using your EX1R and GH2 and going through the various work flows. Everyone has their own likes and dislikes and either solution, taking 60i and deinterlacing or shooting all in 60i, has it's pros and cons. The biggest issues I have is getting good color matching between my two cameras.

-Garrett

[Geoffrey Chandler]

OK, I know this is like basic stuff, but I'm struggling a bit with learning how to edit and render with my new Canon 60D. I'm recording at what the camera calls, 1920x1080 30. The files I take off my HDSC card are Quick Time Movie files(.MOV). After I transfer them to my media drive, is there anything else I need to do to the files before editing? My system really struggles to play the video in the Vegas timeline. I have the preview window quality turned down to "draft" "auto" but the image seems a bit jumpy, like the processor can't keep up. Do I need to render the files that come out of the camera with another computer program first?

Vegas 9.0e
Intel Core 2 Quad CPU6600 @2.4 GHz 2.70 GHz
4.00GB RAM
Windows 7 64 Bit

[Seth Bloombaum]

Geoffrey, you have three basic directions you can go with this:

1) Further optimize, if possible, your PC for Vegas playback. Make sure that Vegas has all the OS resources you can give it.

This may not give you what you want. V9 and all previous versions use Apple's Quicktime for playback of these files - ouch, there's a real bottleneck there!

2) Transcode to some intermediate codec that is better behaved. Cineform NeoScene for $100, DVFilm's Epic for $45, or Sony MXF, built-in to Vegas. Cineform and Epic have trial versions.

Of course, the drawback is that extra step of transcoding takes time. Epic works in the background to transcode while you work.

3) For V10, Sony wrote their own decoder for mov such as the 60D clips. It works better. There's a trial version of V10, too, and you can install it and keep your V9.

Which of these might work for you? It depends on what kind of work you're doing. I used to use Cineform, have demoed Epic, but am currently using the native playback in v10. My work doesn't require layering multiple video streams. I'd suggest you try some of the above, and figure out what's good enough and best matched to your workflow. They're all very reasonable solutions...