How to correct / mis-match FPS

[Jonas Marlowe]

I have mistakenly aqiured mis-match footage.

P2 24PN and Canon 30p HDV

I always use 30p for everything and the only reason I got the 24PN was the camera had the wrong settings.

I contacted a film house in LA about how to convert / what I should do and they said something to the effect of "with Vegas pro you can probably just drop it all in a 30p timeline and Vegas will automatically up-sample the 24PN". but they also said they were not Vegas experts.

Someone else also said the 24PN would end up (once rendered) in slight slow motion.

Any tips here?

I have about 20 hours (each) footage and I cant start the project until I know for sure how to transcode and/or set up a project in Vegas (or other nle if i had to).

[Edward Troxel]

Yes, you can just drop both on the timeline and Vegas will convert as needed. I'm guessing most would recommend going to a 24fps output, though, unless you really need the output to be 30.

Going from 24 to 30, basically information has to be "made up" to fill in the missing frames. Going from 30 to 24, some frames simply need to be dropped.

[Jonas Marlowe]

another source said this:


30p to 24p is generally fairly ugly. 24p goes half decently to 30p.
I'd create a 30p timeline and upsample the 24p to 30.
Unless terribly desperate, I wouldn't take the 30p to 24p.

--

another source said this (but it was in FCP terms so I didnt know exactly how it would translate in Vegas terms):



I ended up in a similar situation at one point

I had a bunch of tapes from a Canon HDV24PF Camera, Canon HV30 @ 60i, and P2 @ 1080_24PA land in my lap to edit.

This is what I did - I spoke to the Director and asked what he preferred the final deliver format to be in.

Then used compressor to convert the 60i clips into ProRes422 @ 23.976 (at a lesser quality setting for speed).

This allowed me to use the 23.976 timebase to edit the project,
then I went back and re-converted _ONLY_ the 60i clips that made it into the final edit again, only at the best-est most CPU intense setting there was (took over 3 days to compute) and re-linked them in the project/sequence.

In your situation you need to have 30P output, if you could live with 24P then loosing some frames out of the 30P via Compressor would be your best bet.
Past that, you can re-time both as someone said into 60i - as both 23.976 and 30.00 will function inside of 60P or 60i as you introduce pull-down/frame repeating to both sources.
Some cameras even film 30P at 60P just doubling the frames.

As for the Sequence Settings, I highly advise not using Apple's HDV Codec but capturing the HDV tapes into ProRes 422 instead. Yes they'll still stay at the 1440x1080 aspect unless you re-code into square pixel aspect ratio but they are way easier to mix-match in a sequence.

The most important thing is the EDIT TIMEBASE in FCP (24fps vs. 30fps) not the codec used in the timeline. Also Panasonic can record 30P (actually 60P) with a 24PsF scene file setting,
there is no major discernible difference between 24P and 30P. - So another option would be to take the 24P DVCPRO and Filp it into 30P DVCPRO (which is essentially 60P).




--



another source said this:


If you mix 24p and 30p, you'll have to make a 60i DVD, and then you'll get interlacing artifacts in the 24p material


--

another source said this:

Do it as 60i or 60p. You can't convert 24p or 30p into each other with good result. But both do fine in a 60 fps stream....

...I'd do it as 1080. Progressive would be better, but 60i may be more workable.


--


so you can see how, as being totally inexperienced with this level of situation, I am quite confused.

[Edward Troxel]

Just drop it on the Vegas timeline and test it out. Vegas really does a pretty good job of converting. Try it both ways and see which you like best.

[Jonas Marlowe]

do you think there would be a significant difference in dropping on time line VS going through a formal transcoding process?

[Edward Troxel]

Vegas will do the transcoding when you render.

[Jonas Marlowe]

Thanks for the feedback Edward, but it really does not give me the assurances (nor the direction) I'm looking for. (please forgive my lack of expertise).

[Mike Kujbida]

Jonas, as Edward said earlier, try it and see.
You're the only one with the source footage and you know what you're looking for so just do a short test and see what you think of it.

[Jonas Marlowe]

when i get feedback from more than one seemingly credible source that is polar opposite, I would rather see if there is any actual consensus from real world experience.

i don't know exactly what I want nor do I know exactly what to do with this and that is a reason not to engage in fumbling through unknown work-flows

I might end up "just doing it" but I will first try to get definite answers online and possibly by hiring someone to look at my actual project file.

I suspect I'm having trouble getting concrete answers or am getting conflicting suggestions is because it is such a rare situation, leading to speculation

[Mike Kujbida]

Jonas, you're getting conflicting answers because, as you admitted, you don't know what you want to do with the final project.
Once you get that figured out, there are a lot of very knowledgeable folks on here who are capable of giving you excellent real world advice.

[Jonas Marlowe]

I want an HD master project that can be output to:

1. SD DVD now and re-output later to HD as needed / required

2. Same master output (either in its entirety or in segments) in formats sufficient to do VOD / Streaming via HTTP and/or using newer HTML5 Video Tags

3. assumption that same output (#2) would suffice for Digital Download of program (s).

[Craig Longman]

I think (one of) the reason(s) you're not getting too many replies, as it is really not a very good situation to be in. Going down in frame rate I think is easier, as you're simply blending existing data, but trying to go up in frame rate requires new information to be 'guessed' at based on the existing. Seems like some 24p can fairly easily be converted to 60i, depending on how the camera stores it. 30p I'd imagine Vegas can do a decent job of converting.

I think Edward is trying to say; it really depends, try a few things out and see. And it does, it depends on the amount of motion, the sources, the targets, etc.

One thing though, I don't think I'd base your satisfaction on the output from the preview window. Either an external real video device, or burn a section and test it on a TV.

The nice thing with keeping it all in Vegas "as-is" from the mixed sources, is you can change your project properties/output settings to produce the best for each type of output you desire, should that be required.

[Jonas Marlowe]

Agreed...not a good situation...trust me, I do know that. I'll re-state.

I hope i did not seem I was belittling anyone. not intended. I just assumed most folks dont make the mistake in the first place so it not necessarily common knowledge, but possibly a specialty situation.

--

I want an HD master project that can be output to:

1. SD DVD now and re-output later to HD as needed / required

2. Same master output (either in its entirety or in segments) in formats sufficient to do VOD / Streaming via HTTP and/or using newer HTML5 Video Tags / progressive download.

3. Same master output (either in its entirety or in segments) in formats sufficient to do Digital Download of program (s).

--

Regarding the actual project/session, I'm uploading a 10 second version of the project. Its about 100MB so if anyone wants to have a look feel free. (link: http://www.pro-tools-training.com/FPS.zip

Tech Notes:

the 10 second version of the project has every track that would be needed in the real project.

1. P2 1280 x 720 23.796 (Render to Track in lieu of trim operation = Sony MXF (don't know if that process matters in this context. if it does, just replace with 24pn from panny): Orig was 24PN Panasonic HVX200)

2. HDV 1440x1080 29.970 Interlaced (Render to Track in lieu of trim operation = same/m2t...Orig was 30P Canon HV30)

3. HDV 1440x1080 29.970 Progressive (Render to Track in lieu of trim operation = same/m2t...30P Canon XH-A1)

4. Giant QT Screen Cap 3359x1049 @ 2 FPS (all tracks (1-4) will be laid out > drag-synced > cut down and then remaining edits of the QT Screen Cap will be recreated at full frame rate and pan and scan will be implemented)

and 5 more audio tracks...

--

[Craig Longman]

I only have VMS, so I couldn't open the MXF file, but the rest seemed fairly static. Someone might correct me, but I'm pretty sure your only real concern for quality would be combing, and there was virtually no movement there at all, in the m2t files at least.

And BTW, I didn't mean to rub in the 'not very good situation' at all =) I was just thinking it's unlikely anyone is going to have a perfect workflow nailed down for this sort of situation.

I really think you should just make a 60i project, get the 3 sources with the worst motion, drop 'em in, make a DVD direct from your timeline with your preferred aspect ratio, then see how it looks. You might be surprised.

I do wish you the best, I know how much realizing a camera mis-setting after the fact can suck =)

[Jonas Marlowe]

Hola Again

thanks for the feedback Craig!

I'm still thinking there is some sort of science to this which is why I posted here seeking a Vegas Pro specific work flow for the project I posted and make available on the link above.

Any other takers much appreciated.