Epic and non-MOV files

[Harry Simpson]

I've been transcoding my 5D mk2 MOV to AVI files and was enticed by the prospect of immediate editing without having to transcode to Cineform AVIs. So i downloaded the trial and as much as i could see due to the limited 10 second clip view.
Looks like the $45 price tag would be worth it but how does it work with other file types such as AVIs etc?
Are there other Cineform users out there that now use Epic? jest wondering.

[Marcus van Bavel]

DVFilm Epic does not work with AVI's right now, only certain types of quicktimes, mainly DSLR quicktimes and uncompressed quicktimes.

[Harry Simpson]

So going forward I just need to pull the raw MOVs into Vegas Studio 10 with Epic attached. No more need to Cineform.....

[Chris Barcellos]

Harry:

I have EPIC and I have CIneform NeoHD.

Somethings need to be understood. I use Epic for quick easy edits. Your are using lower rez proxy files to see what you are editing. I think it has its place. But with Epic, you are still transcoding. In my case, its to a lower resolution file that will edit faster in Vegas and give a decent preview to edit from. The transcoding occurs in the background when you start your project, when you bring your files into project bin. So in early phase of edit, you will not have access to the finishied "proxy" files. Also, as far as preview, once the files are transcoded, you get a low rez preview. And finally, in order to render out to a higher definition file, you have to turn epic off, so the proxy isn't what you are rendering from.

It is my understanding that you can transcode to a higher rez file to get files more like a Cineform file, but with Cineform on board, I haven't had the need to play with that.

[Marcus van Bavel]

Originally Posted by Harry Simpson

So going forward I just need to pull the raw MOVs into Vegas Studio 10 with Epic attached. No more need to Cineform.....

That's right there is no need to transcode to any other format, you just drop the clips into the timeline and start editing.

[Marcus van Bavel]

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

Harry:

I have EPIC and I have CIneform NeoHD.

Thanks for buying and using Epic! A couple things I wanted to clarify...

Somethings need to be understood. I use Epic for quick easy edits. Your are using lower rez proxy files to see what you are editing. I think it has its place. But with Epic, you are still transcoding. In my case, its to a lower resolution file that will edit faster in Vegas and give a decent preview to edit from. The transcoding occurs in the background when you start your project, when you bring your files into project bin. So in early phase of edit, you will not have access to the finishied "proxy" files.

I think using the word transcode as regards to Epic is confusing and, actually the direct opposite of what Epic does. To me anyway, transcoding means you have to build a 2nd set of files in a different format, which you then use to edit instead of the original files. With Epic you drag the original files into your project. Yes, there is processing in the background but many editing tasks can be accomplished while that is taking place: the notation of clips, assembly of clips in the timeline, setting rough in and out points. With trancoding, none of that can be done until the transcode's done. Also if you drag clips from the Vegas file explorer into the timeline in the rough order required in the scene, some of those early clips are likely ready for real-time playback by the time you get all of them trimmed and roughed in.

Also, as far as preview, once the files are transcoded, you get a low rez preview.

Not necessarily. That is dependent on the option you select. Epic 1.1 defaults to a medium res preview. There are options for low and high res preview. The high res preview is the same resolution as the original file, as you point out below.

And finally, in order to render out to a higher definition file, you have to turn epic off, so the proxy isn't what you are rendering from.

That's feature, not a drawback! You click the column overlay to switch to original quality before rendering (or it can be automatic). With Cineform and other transcoding methods you are stuck with an image that is already recompressed and therefore lower quality than the original.

It is my understanding that you can transcode to a higher rez file to get files more like a Cineform file, but with Cineform on board, I haven't had the need to play with that.

Frankly don't expect many cineform users to like Epic for various reasons.

But Epic is more like the file-based workflow you get with P2 and other professional formats: simple, drag-and-drop editing, skip the whole transcoding/file-swapping mess, and also get the highest possible quality on your renders. I think for people new to DSLR it's a better way.

[Harry Simpson]

I've got several terabytes filled with MOV and Cineform AVIs - and I'm not new to DSLR video - I think the major appeal to me is that I can start processing immediately without having to create a whole other set of files just to start editing.

[Chris Barcellos]

Marcus:

1. As I understand it, Cineform claims to correct an inherent error is assignment of black and white level in the Canon product. As an early adopter of the Canon 5d we recognized that as a problem with footage from the camera. Essentially, the camera was crushing the blacks and clipping the whites in its output, while there was actual detail at both ends available. Do you see that as an issue, and if so, does Epic correct that ?

2. Your premise that the Cineform file deteriorates the Canon original file is not accurate in my opinion. It actually cleans up some issues both on image and sound side and in not technical term, creates a file that is frame accurate- meaning a single frame in a change of frames is not dependent on decoding information from previous frames. This is supposed to give the NLE more stable results. Also, I don't pretend to be a tech expert, but I am told that Cineform move you up to a better color space arrangement for editing in, and doing color correction. Is that something that I should be concerned about and is EPIC providing such similar benefits.

3. As far as transcoding, whether or not you use it in the final product, you still have to create a whole new proxy file. So the benefit of the proxy file is not available until the renders are completed. And in my experience the proxy file take quite a bit of time to be rendered. Certainly, not any shorter than doing a transcode of the same file in Cineforms HD Link.

[Marcus van Bavel]

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

Marcus:

1. As I understand it, Cineform claims to correct an inherent error is assignment of black and white level in the Canon product. As an early adopter of the Canon 5d we recognized that as a problem with footage from the camera. Essentially, the camera was crushing the blacks and clipping the whites in its output, while there was actual detail at both ends available. Do you see that as an issue, and if so, does Epic correct that ?

Yes, Epic has both video system and computer RGB modes and it's selectable.

2. Your premise that the Cineform file deteriorates the Canon original file is not accurate in my opinion.

It is accurate

It actually cleans up some issues both on image and sound side and in not technical term, creates a file that is frame accurate- meaning a single frame in a change of frames is not dependent on decoding information from previous frames. This is supposed to give the NLE more stable results. Also, I don't pretend to be a tech expert, but I am told that Cineform move you up to a better color space arrangement for editing in, and doing color correction. Is that something that I should be concerned about and is EPIC providing such similar benefits.

Epic has a 10-bit YUV mode that provides similar benefits for color space.

However with Cineform, as with any lossy recompression step, there is image degradation caused by the recompression process. There is a low-pass filter effect which results in lower sharpness or fidelity and also added noise. Same goes for any lossy compression method such as Avid DNxHD or Sony MXF which are discrete cosine -based compression, or Cineform which is wavelet based compression. The filtering and noise may not be significant at high quality settings, however higher quality comes at the price of large file sizes and added throughput requirements on the disk drive for real-time playback. For example if your transcode is 4x-5x larger file than the original, you might need a RAID to play it back real time or you might not be able to handle multiple layers.

Epic avoids all extra recompression since you render from the originals and that is the best possible quality. The real-time mode in Epic has very low processor loading and low disk space requirements so you can edit without worries, even on a very low-cost computer.

3. As far as transcoding, whether or not you use it in the final product, you still have to create a whole new proxy file. So the benefit of the proxy file is not available until the renders are completed. And in my experience the proxy file take quite a bit of time to be rendered. Certainly, not any shorter than doing a transcode of the same file in Cineforms HD Link.

No, there is no time lost with Epic. I explained why in my previous post, but here it is again for example: Suppose it takes 6 hours to edit a scene and 2 hours to transcode the footage. With transcoding your edit will take 8 hours to complete. With Epic, you start editing immediately. By the time you have trimmed your clips and assembled them the real-time playback is ready for the first group of clips. By the time you have fine-cut the first group, the rest of the clips are ready for RT playback. Thus there is no time wasted and the edit can be competed in 6 hours instead of 8, not to mention time lost dealing with transcoding problems like running out of hard drive space and crashing the transcoder or after 2 hours discovering the transcode was done with the wrong settings.

[Harry Simpson]

Maybe I'm not using Epic correctly but instead of waiting for Cineform to transcode, it seems I'm waiting for Epic to do whatever it's doing with a popup Epic progress bar. Not sure what I've got. I want to pull down my clips onto the timeline and after I do I see the progrss bar for the first clip slowly plodding along. What does this mean? That the other three or four files are not "proxyed" yet?
I am a new user and under a deadline so no time to stumble around - I rendered a two clip compilation and the audio was way off on the second clip and the video was funcky too. Transcode to Cineform avi and dropped the second clip onto the timeline and it worked great.
Suppose I'm not using the Epic correctly but have deadlines to meet and can't wait for failed renders.

[Andy Olson]

Harry,

If you are having trouble with DVFilm EPIC please go to this link and submit a support request or use our Online Chat.

http://dvfilm.com/support.htm

Hope this is helpful.

[Harry Simpson]

Thanks Andy,

Wasnt trying to flame it or anything....just under time crunch and haven't spent the required time with the app. Online chat outta be helpful.

Thanks
Harry