Cannot print to tape using a 24p framerate

[Adam Woodworth]

Using Vegas 6.0b, it will not let me print to tape from the timeline using any NTSC DV 24p template. Specifically, I want to print to tape using the NSTC DV Widescreen 24p (2-3 pulldown) template.

Whenever I select a 24p template from the Print to Tape "Conform Timeline to Device Format" dialog box, and then click next, then next again to get to the "Device Setup" dialog box, all the options in the "Device Setup" dialog box are greyed out. I cannot choose any option, and I cannot hit the next button to begin the printing to tape.

This is NOT a problem in Vegas 5. I can do this same thing in Vegas 5 without a problem.

Thus, this seems to be a regression defect in Vegas 6.

I have tried this with both my Canon XL2 and my Sony handycam as DV print devices, and neither will work in Vegas 6 with a 24p framerate template for printing to tape. Also, if I select a non-24p template and then change the framerate manually by customizing it, it also does not let me print to tape. So it is a problem with printing to tape with a 24p setting. I can print to tape in normal (60i) mode just fine.

Steps:
1) Open my 24p project.
2) Go to Tools->Print Video to Tape
3) Select a 24p template, click Next.
4) Click next.
5) All options in the "Device Setup" dialog are greyed out, and I can't go any further.

Anyone have any clues? Since Vegas 6 projects cannot be opened in Vegas 5, my current workaround is to render my Vegas 6 project to a .avi file, and then open it in Vegas 5 and print to tape from there, but I'd prefer to have Vegas 6 do it all.

Thanks!
Adam

[David Jimerson]

Yeesh, not sure. Hasn’t been a problem for me.

However, as a stopgap workaround, you CAN open V5 and V6 simultaneously, select your entire timeline, and copy/paste it into Vegas 5. I’ve never tried that with an entire project, so it might not copy all track keyframes, etc. – but then, it might. If you can’t find any other way, give it a shot.

[Adam Woodworth]

David, what type of camera or VTR are you using for your tapedeck with Vegas?

[Peter Jefferson]

remember that the cameras themselves are restricted to the physical limitation of the recording DV format.. 24p isnt a native format of DV, its a hybrid of 29.97 (30fps or whatever).. so you MUST reinsert the pulldown routine for capturing to work... the camera wont insert the pulldown for you... if u create a standard 29.97 project (not 24p) and you insert the 24p footage on the timeline, vegas will calculate the appropriate pulldown routine for recapture.. you still retain the 24p motion however... theres alot about this al lover this joint, best to do a search.. coz im in PAL land we dont have to worry about this :) but i may be mising a step or something..

[Bill Binder]

We need more info to help you. What format is your original footage in? 60i or 24p? What are your project settings EXACTLY? What are you rendering out to?

If your original footage is 60i, then make your project settings 24p and set deinterlace to blend, and render out to NTSC 24p with 3-2 pulldown. Works every time for me... So, project is set to 24p (no pulldown here), render out to 24p with pulldown to get back to 29.97 interlaced for print-to-tape.

If your original footage is true 24p (with 2-3-3-2 pulldown inserted by cam), then make sure that vegas has the option set where it REMOVES the pulldown when opening the clips, this lets vegas strip the 60i to its real 24p essence in the timeline. Then make sure your project is set to 24p, and then render out to 24p with 3:2 pulldown to get back to 29.97 interlaced for print-to-tape. (Caveat, I don't have 24p cam, so I might be off on this part?)

[DJ Kinney]

No. I copy you, big 10-4 man. The problem isn't a "problem," it's actually a fix. So the deal is, back in version 5, when you printed to the camera (which is 60i/30p) the software did the reinsertion of frames silently (automatically) to bring the 24p footage up to 60i.

But with Vegas 6(b), the reinsertion of frames is not done automatically. So you need first to render out the 24p timeline as NTSC DV, and then you can print to tape. Vegas 5 simply removed a step.

You would not have this problem if you were printing a 24p timeline to a 24p device, like a Canon XL2 or DVX100a or the like.

Give or take, that answer came from Douglas Spotted Eagle when I had the same issue a while back.

DJ

[Adam Woodworth]

You call that a fix? No, printing to tape from the timeline means you're supposed to do exactly that -- no middle steps of rendering to a new file, and loading that new file into a new project should be required to print to tape. This sounds like a regression defect to me.

At any rate, rendering my timeline out to NTSC DV 24p widescreen with 2-3 pulldown, and then loading that file into a 24p project, and trying to print to tape from that project doesn't work for me anyways.

Also, printing from the timeline to my XL2 using a 24p template doesn't work in Vegas 6 either, as I said in my original post.

My source footage was shot on my XL2 in 24p (2-3-3-2 pulldown) mode. I have the option turned on in Vegas to "Allow pulldown removal when opening 24p DV". My project settings are using a framerate of 23.976 and a pixel aspect ratio of 1.2121.

So I have 24p footage with the pulldown removed in the timeline, and I'm trying to print that footage to a DV camera, and I'm selecting the "NSTC DV Widescreen 24p (2-3 pulldown)" print to tape template. It just doesn't work in Vegas 6. Selecting a non-24p print to tape template works fine.

These are the EXACT same project settings I use in Vegas 5, and I can print to the timeline using a 24p print to tape template just fine in Vegas 5.

[Bill Binder]

Something does seem screwy with your scenario. Bummer.

Interesting about the need to render out 24p to NTSC before printing to tape in Vegas 6. I never noticed that because I always render out the timeline first. I do this because typically, I do a lot of encoding after that step with Sorenson or Procoder, so it's easier to just make a master, then encode to WMV, MOV, and MPEG2 all from that file (speeds things up to, since all fades, fx, etc. only need to be rendered once).

Anyway, one tip on the print-to-tape front. If you have a rendered NTSC avi ready to go, no need to drop into timeline to print to tape. Just open the capture app, click on print-to-tape tab, click on open icon and open your avi, and just print. Real easy, no need for timeline, and even better, you can easily queue up a BUNCH of avi's all at once and have the capture app print them all in a row.

Sorry, about your other problem though, maybe check the Sony forums...

[DJ Kinney]

I should edit what I originally said, then. I thought the XL2 was a 24p device, but it evidently isn't. Anyway. You can only print NTSC DV streams to the device. Sorry for that confusion. I guess you need an actual 24p device for it to work.

[Adam Woodworth]

No, that is not true. The XL2 is 24p capable. As I've said before, I can print to the XL2 in NTSC DV 24p (2-3) Widescreen mode in Vegas 5.

So something appears broken in 6.

[Edward Troxel]

On the Sony forum there was a possible solution to this problem posted. Make sure your camera is turned on BEFORE starting Vegas. Then try to PTT. At least one person indicated this eliminated the grayed buttons problem.

[Adam Woodworth]

Hmm, nope, doesn't fix it for me.

I shall go poke around in the Sony forums...

[Adam Woodworth]

After re-thinking about what DJ said, I realized I screwed up my test of the workaround. Rendering to 24p (2-3 pulldown) first, and then printing to tape using the DV (not 24p) template works fine. This is still a workaround, not a resolution to the problem.

[Bill Binder]

That makes sense though right? You render out to 2-3 24p, which IS ACTUALLY 29.97 NTSC at that point. Then you load it into the timeline and print to tape while the project settings are at standard NTSC 60i templates. Do I have that right? I think so, not sure.

I would still consider doing what I said above, which is to render out to 24p with 3:2 pulldown to an avi file first (if you go to timeline first, vegas basically does this step for you in chunks anyway, so why not have access to the whole file anyway?). Then open the Vegas CAPTURE app and just print that file to tape from there not vegas (no need to specify any template at that point since the avi is 60i NTSC already at that point and the cap app will just print it no problem from the file itself). Dropping it back into the timeline works, but it's a little confusing because at that point the video is back to 60i, and even though it is 24p with 2-3 pulldown, doesn't vegas just think of it as 60i at this point? If it was 2-3-3-2, then vegas would unwind the 24p, but with 3-2 only vegas will just leave it alone won't it? Also, I might add that the 2-3 60i at this point shouldn't be edited because the pulldown spans fields in the same frame at this point doesn't it?

I don't have one of these cams, but wouldn't you need to render out to 24p with 2-3-3-2 pulldown in order to print-to-tape in "true" 24p native mode for that cam? Isn't the cam just like vegas? If it isn't 2-3-3-2, then it'll just treat it like any other 60i won't it? If you print to tape with 3-2 pulldown, then the cam will just think it is normal 60i NTSC won't it?

[DJ Kinney]

QUOTE::: No, that is not true. The XL2 is 24p capable. As I've said before, I can print to the XL2 in NTSC DV 24p (2-3) Widescreen mode in Vegas 5.

What I'm thinking is that the XL2 records in 24p mode, but it isn't true 24p. It is actually 29.97 with the pulldown. It's not a "true" 24p device, maybe? I need technical specs from someone.

And I used to be able to print NTSC 24p (2-3) Widescreen to my GL2 in Vegas 5, and the GL2 is neither widescreen, nor 24p. It was reinserting frames to make a compatible 29.97 stream.

I'm telling you 1) you are right, it is annoying, and I wish it wasn't so, but 2) it is so.

:-(

DJ