60i to 24p? at DVinfo.net

Jesse Stipek · July 14th, 2005, 02:53 PM

I am about to purchase a GL2, and I know that Vegas 6.0 can convert 60i to 24p. Does anyone know if it actually "looks" like 24p when it is finally converted? Because I heard it will cause ghost trails on fast moving objects.

Glenn Chan · July 14th, 2005, 03:48 PM

Where'd you hear that from? I don't see any "ghost trails".

Vegas' 60i to 24p conversion looks really good. You'll probably get slightly better resolution with a camera that shoots 24p natively.

With the GL2, I'd probably just shoot frame mode. No rendering, easier to handle in post, arguably looks better than 24p.
Shooting 30p would be more ideal, but that's likely out of your budget?

Gary Kleiner · July 14th, 2005, 04:05 PM

Vegas 6 has some tweaks to do the conversion better than previous versions. When you shoot your 60i, set your shutter speed to 1/60th for even better results.

Gary

Jesse Stipek · July 14th, 2005, 08:46 PM

Ok cool. I'm actually a bit new to the knowledge of video, but I've been learning alot thanks to this board.

I want to make a war epic when I get my GL2 (and yes, my budget will only allow me to get a GL2). So should I convert it to 24p? I want it to look 'cinematic' and I'v heard 24p is the closest to film as Im going to get. However, I know the GL2 does not shoot in 24p... so will it still look good if I convert it? Or shall I go with the 60i?

Douglas Spotted Eagle · July 16th, 2005, 06:41 AM

With a GL2, shoot 60i no matter what. Never use frame mode. Get the most spatial resolution you can. Then convert to 24p at last moment if you want that for saving space on the DVD.

David Jimerson · July 16th, 2005, 06:46 AM

Do you think so, Spot? I would convert to 24p before adding any effects, etc.. Best to edit in 24p if you want your output to be 24p, IMHO, particularly when Vegas is just so darn tootin' good at it.

Douglas Spotted Eagle · July 16th, 2005, 06:55 AM

Obviously, I wrote this one short. Sometimes the way the thread goes causes me to do that.
No, I don't think exactly so, I mean, heck...Ultimate S and Celluloid both convert to 24p first, then render those sexy filmlooks...

I'm also occasionally a proponent of rendering to 60p first, so you're not landing on odd frames 4 times a second too....

Applying FX, titles, etc should almost always be done at 24p if that's where you're gonna end up at the end of the day. In fact, just posted on this very subject in another DVInfo.net forum a few moments ago.

Call it jet lag for the short response earlier if you want. :-)

Glenn Chan · July 16th, 2005, 10:56 AM

Spot is talking about shooting 60i and converting to 24p in Vegas.

I'm talking about shooting frame mode (which is quasi-30p, but not real 30p because you don't get full resolution) and outputting to 30p. It'll look very similar to 24p (arguably better; maybe a little worse on DVD) but also it'll be less messing around in post (you don't have to render the conversions).

In any case I think both methods would give you good results.

David Jimerson · July 16th, 2005, 01:49 PM

"Better" is subjective, of course, depending on what you want your piece to look like.

By my rough estimate, about 79.7884434% of what gives 24p its visual characteristics is the motion rendering, the 24 motion samples per second. If you want to make a war epic in the classic style, to look like more like some of the greats, you'll probably be wanting to match the motion cadence as closely as possible. Converting to 24p will better do this for you. Vegas does a great job at it.

Remember, though, if you're shooting 60i with intent to convert to 24p, you need to be handling the camera like it's shooting 24p or film -- slow pans, slow zooms, sparing in both, and if you do a quicker pan, be following something or someone that's the center of attention. Many of the camera movement techniques we've come to call "cinematic" were developed over decades of working with 24fps film and the characteristics of it, so if you're shooting like it's film, the final product is going to look more LIKE film.

Jesse Stipek · July 16th, 2005, 02:08 PM

Ah wow, thanks for all the awesome and helpful replies! I get my GL2 mid-August so I have alot of time to research 24p and do some pre-preduction. I'll most likely take Davids kind words of advice, but then again if all doesn't go well (which is highly doubtful), I'll just shoot it in 30p. Again, thank you!

Michael Sinclair · July 17th, 2005, 07:16 PM

I have had Vegas for a year but have been too busy to really learn much. I have Vegas 6 with the update. I am off all summer and want to know what steps most of you take in shooting, capturing, editing and converting. I have an Optura 300 for now. My friend has a Sony vx2100 too. I have a ton of Optura video that I want to play with for now. I shoot in widescreen all of the time since it seems that all TV's will go that route now. I want to give some of the footage the film look. I see that magic bullet has some plug ins that give film effects. Anyone use these at all? What I want to really know is if any of you deinterlace video first and what program do you use. What is the benefit of deinterlacing?

Jeff Baker · July 18th, 2005, 05:12 PM

Magic bullet has some great preset looks (including one called 'epic') that can be tweaked to give nice results. I don't like the de-interlacer however and prefer re:visions fields kit for that part of the workflow.
How about adding a little motion blur to a 30p project or to help lessen the studdering of a 24p conversion?

July 14th, 2005, 02:53 PM	#1
Jesse Stipek Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Monroe, WA Posts: 44	60i to 24p? I am about to purchase a GL2, and I know that Vegas 6.0 can convert 60i to 24p. Does anyone know if it actually "looks" like 24p when it is finally converted? Because I heard it will cause ghost trails on fast moving objects.

July 16th, 2005, 06:41 AM	#5
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	With a GL2, shoot 60i no matter what. Never use frame mode. Get the most spatial resolution you can. Then convert to 24p at last moment if you want that for saving space on the DVD. __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

July 16th, 2005, 06:55 AM	#7
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	Obviously, I wrote this one short. Sometimes the way the thread goes causes me to do that. No, I don't think exactly so, I mean, heck...Ultimate S and Celluloid both convert to 24p first, then render those sexy filmlooks... I'm also occasionally a proponent of rendering to 60p first, so you're not landing on odd frames 4 times a second too.... Applying FX, titles, etc should almost always be done at 24p if that's where you're gonna end up at the end of the day. In fact, just posted on this very subject in another DVInfo.net forum a few moments ago. Call it jet lag for the short response earlier if you want. :-) __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

July 16th, 2005, 01:49 PM	#9
David Jimerson Jubal 28 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 872	"Better" is subjective, of course, depending on what you want your piece to look like. By my rough estimate, about 79.7884434% of what gives 24p its visual characteristics is the motion rendering, the 24 motion samples per second. If you want to make a war epic in the classic style, to look like more like some of the greats, you'll probably be wanting to match the motion cadence as closely as possible. Converting to 24p will better do this for you. Vegas does a great job at it. Remember, though, if you're shooting 60i with intent to convert to 24p, you need to be handling the camera like it's shooting 24p or film -- slow pans, slow zooms, sparing in both, and if you do a quicker pan, be following something or someone that's the center of attention. Many of the camera movement techniques we've come to call "cinematic" were developed over decades of working with 24fps film and the characteristics of it, so if you're shooting like it's film, the final product is going to look more LIKE film. __________________ www.wrightsvillebeachstudios.com

July 16th, 2005, 02:08 PM	#10
Jesse Stipek Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Monroe, WA Posts: 44	Thanksss! Ah wow, thanks for all the awesome and helpful replies! I get my GL2 mid-August so I have alot of time to research 24p and do some pre-preduction. I'll most likely take Davids kind words of advice, but then again if all doesn't go well (which is highly doubtful), I'll just shoot it in 30p. Again, thank you!

July 14th, 2005, 03:48 PM	#2
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	Where'd you hear that from? I don't see any "ghost trails". Vegas' 60i to 24p conversion looks really good. You'll probably get slightly better resolution with a camera that shoots 24p natively. With the GL2, I'd probably just shoot frame mode. No rendering, easier to handle in post, arguably looks better than 24p. Shooting 30p would be more ideal, but that's likely out of your budget?

July 14th, 2005, 04:05 PM	#3
Gary Kleiner Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Fort Collins, Colorado Posts: 166	Vegas 6 has some tweaks to do the conversion better than previous versions. When you shoot your 60i, set your shutter speed to 1/60th for even better results. Gary

July 14th, 2005, 08:46 PM	#4
Jesse Stipek Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Monroe, WA Posts: 44	Ok cool. I'm actually a bit new to the knowledge of video, but I've been learning alot thanks to this board. I want to make a war epic when I get my GL2 (and yes, my budget will only allow me to get a GL2). So should I convert it to 24p? I want it to look 'cinematic' and I'v heard 24p is the closest to film as Im going to get. However, I know the GL2 does not shoot in 24p... so will it still look good if I convert it? Or shall I go with the 60i?

July 16th, 2005, 06:46 AM	#6
David Jimerson Jubal 28 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 872	Do you think so, Spot? I would convert to 24p before adding any effects, etc.. Best to edit in 24p if you want your output to be 24p, IMHO, particularly when Vegas is just so darn tootin' good at it.

July 16th, 2005, 10:56 AM	#8
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	Spot is talking about shooting 60i and converting to 24p in Vegas. I'm talking about shooting frame mode (which is quasi-30p, but not real 30p because you don't get full resolution) and outputting to 30p. It'll look very similar to 24p (arguably better; maybe a little worse on DVD) but also it'll be less messing around in post (you don't have to render the conversions). In any case I think both methods would give you good results.

July 17th, 2005, 07:16 PM	#11
Michael Sinclair Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 48	New I have had Vegas for a year but have been too busy to really learn much. I have Vegas 6 with the update. I am off all summer and want to know what steps most of you take in shooting, capturing, editing and converting. I have an Optura 300 for now. My friend has a Sony vx2100 too. I have a ton of Optura video that I want to play with for now. I shoot in widescreen all of the time since it seems that all TV's will go that route now. I want to give some of the footage the film look. I see that magic bullet has some plug ins that give film effects. Anyone use these at all? What I want to really know is if any of you deinterlace video first and what program do you use. What is the benefit of deinterlacing?

July 18th, 2005, 05:12 PM	#12
Jeff Baker Regular Crew Join Date: May 2005 Location: Northampton, MA Posts: 184	Magic bullet has some great preset looks (including one called 'epic') that can be tweaked to give nice results. I don't like the de-interlacer however and prefer re:visions fields kit for that part of the workflow. How about adding a little motion blur to a 30p project or to help lessen the studdering of a 24p conversion? __________________ Canon C100, 5D3