is Sony Vegas a good all-rounder software?

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Federico Perale

thanks Nicholas: just to be clear - if I buy a Mac Pro and run Windows 7 with Vegas 8c, will I be able to use an external bluray player?
does Vegas 8c support it?
I ask because I read some users saying Vegas 8c doesn't allow rendering full HD on AVCHD files....but should be fine with Mpeg 2 I suppose

also: does Vegas 8c fully work with EX1 raw files (mp4)? I read different opinions

8c should have no problems rendering full HD in AVC (AVCHD is a marketing term and doesn't really apply here). However, based on some rather odd issues, you may want to render to a lossless codec in Vegas and let DVD Architect actually do the transcoding to AVC if that's what you want to do.

Vegas 8.0c does NOT work with the MP4 raw files in the EX1r. The camera comes with Clipbrowser. It re-wraps the mpeg2 codec inside that mp4 container into an MXF container which 8.0c is able to ingest. There is no quality lost at this step, but it does take a bit of extra time.

I am using 8.0c at home and this is exactly the process I follow. No big deal really and actually has some advantages. Like being able to pre-trim footage, add essence marks, fix partially exposed frames from the rolling shutter, add metadata, select print takes from non-print, etc. It's a nice way to work.

I can't give you any advice about Bootcamp. Others will have to chime in on it.

Oh, and in regards to Cineform or other intermediates, you shouldn't need it, but read the Known Issues section of that version release. You can get out of memory errors trying to go from EX1 or HDV files to another long GOP codec like AVC. It's happened to me, and it's happened to others. So I do a lossless transcode to a intraframe codec, then transcode to AVC and that works. It's a PITA extra step that I shouldn't need to do but I plan for it anyway. If I am going to be applying any effects, I just do this anyway because I know it will be an issue.

[Perrone Ford]

A couple of notes. I think Edius is a nice application. It is not what I migrated to. I chose Avid for numerous reasons. I am glad you took the time to try Edius though and were able to see that some of your fears were perhaps unfounded. The current version of Edius is 5.5, but I am not sure what you downloaded. This version can edit several streams AVCHD files without transcoding if you're on a decent machine.

Edius offers a 30day trial. So does Avid. Premiere in Adobe's infinite wisdom offers NO trial. Other than Vegas, these programs do have a more structured feel, and a more structured workflow. Obviously some will not like that. However, it also contributes to their being stable, it contributes to their ability to be used by people used to that style of editing (many professionals), and for those NOT used to Vegas, it's likely easier to pick up.

All of these editors have various ways to accomplish tasks. I was quite surprised to see Avid had about as many ways to do various tasks as Vegas did. Vegas is not unique in that regard though some seem to believe it is.

All I am saying is though Vegas has a lot of really nice features, TRY other programs and see what they have to offer. Dispel all the internet hoopla and get your hands on different things. You might be pleasantly surprised.

[Dale Guthormsen]

Perrone,


First, I always appreciate your posts!!!!

this is frome your post:
rendering long-GOP codecs on the timeline produces out of memory errors on machines with 8GB of RAM or more (all flavors of V9),

Sene I have 10 gigs in my machine, If I move back to 6 I wont get these stupid out of memory issues??????



I tried the edius 5.0 Trial, did a project on it , and while I did not fallin love with it I did see its advantages and went ahead and purchased it.

Oh yea, I am 60 and find the type a wee small but felt I could get by (spend about 4 hours a day at the editor), and now I read you can change the type size. Will have to search that one out.

thank you for your valuable and interesting posts.


Dale Guthormsen

[Perrone Ford]

This was worded poorly on my part. I meant to say that EVEN on machines with plenty of RAM this is still an issue. Even with the 64bit version. I had an out of memory error last Friday working with 22 minutes of MXF files (right off the EX1) on my machine with 8GB of RAM. I was just trying to do a timecode window burn to 720p. I am working on a movie and wanted to prepare dailies for the director. The only effect was placing timecode on top of the videos.... Render failed 2 minutes in. That was in 64bit Vegas 9.0c by the way.

[Dale Guthormsen]

Perrone,

Well, Darn. I have been getting the memory issue prretty often!!!! Running 64 bit. I have reverted back to 8.0c for now.

When I get a chance I am going to do a totally clean install of the OS then just vegas and try it on again!!


DAle

[Cliff Etzel]

Perrone has been mentoring me on the finer aspects of post production and I have experienced many issues related to Vegas Pro as he has. Perrones insights come from his continued testing of various Post techniques and he's a wealth of information and experience. His comments come from real world experience and I can vouch that I too have experienced many of the same issues as he has - and we've never met in person since we live on opposite sides of the country.

Perrone mentions Edius because it's the NLE I moved to in January of this year after Vegas Pro literally locking up on both standard m2t's from my HC7's and Cineform Neo Scene intermediates.

I was in the process of editing a 5 minute project I shot and finally threw my hands up in disgust. I was losing time and my patience had run its course in giving Vegas my full attention. I instead downloaded the Trial of Edius Neo 2 and even with it's limited feature set, I was able to edit the project with NO issues whatsoever. It literally did what Vegas could not do. I got the project edited and delivered to the client and they were amazed at the quality of the footage.

I was so impressed with Neo 2 that I purchased it in the middle of the edit and installed it. Now I'm looking to Edius Pro as the next step for the need of audio control and video scopes which isn't something Neo 2 offers.

I was a vocal advocate for Vegas since version 6/7 but I just can't continue in good conscience recommend it any longer. Edius is well known in the broadcast industry due to Grass Valley's hardware in broadcast stations so that says alot to me and my inquiries to Grass Valley confirm they are rolling out training programs that will be on par with what AVID offers.

Vegas works for some, yet it doesn't for others. My take on Edius is although I had to relearn a new editing paradigm, it was worth it to me since I now know I can rely upon the application to do what I ask of it and know it will not let me down. Also, all my NewBlueFX pplugins work with Edius so there was no loss for me in my investment as well as proDAD's Mercalli.

Vegas was once a powerful editor for me - for those it works for, I envy you. I miss all the things I could do in Vegas, but time is money, and as I, Perrone and others like Bill Ravens have discovered, Vegas has become more unreliable with each successive version.

That's my experience - take it for what it is as YMMV

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Dale Guthormsen

I have been getting the memory issue prretty often!!!! Running 64 bit. I have reverted back to 8.0c for now.

I've done it three times on 2 different machines. Hasn't made a shred of difference.

[Bill Binder]

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

I've done it three times on 2 different machines. Hasn't made a shred of difference.

Have you guys implemented the "memory hack" from the Sony Forums? Cause that completely fixed my memory issues.

[Chris Barcellos]

Bill: More info please re what you are referring to ?? Link ?

[Adam Stanislav]

Originally Posted by Cliff Etzel

he's a wealth of information and experience.

No argument there.

No NLE will do everything for everyone. That is why there are so many of them. Clearly, Vegas is not for Perrone. Just as clearly, Edius is not for me. Because I really cannot see and read what it says. I have diabetes and blurry vision. I have my Windows configured to deal with it and all Windows software that follows the rules of Windows programming adjust their font size automatically. Vegas does. Edius does not. Yes, I downloaded it. Yes, I tested it. No, it does not work for me.

That said, I do not go to Edius forum and tell everyone that Edius is no good. This here is a Vegas forum. So, if Vegas does not work for someone, do not use it. But do not tell everyone here that Vegas is broken, Vegas is no good, and things like that. Vegas is an amazing NLE. Years ago, for example, I was using Premiere. I also had Vegas but was not using it because I was used to Premiere. Then I started using Vegas occasionally for quick and simple things and the more I used it, the more I loved it. It is more intuitive, it is faster. It does almost everything I need. I finally abandoned Premiere completely. But I do not go to the Premiere forum and tell people they should switch to Vegas.

Once again, this is a Vegas forum. Telling people not to use it is counterproductive to say the least. At least in this forum it is.

And it has reached the point of absurdity with the long list of all the things that were fixed in various versions. As if Vegas was the only program that fixes things. Any software as complex as a full NLE will have bugs. Always has and always will. The only software that can be made bug free is a simple program that does a single specialized task in a completely predictable way.

That is, for example, the reason for the Unix philosophy that any program should do just one thing and that users should just pipe the output of one program to another program and then its output to another program, and so on, until you have accomplished whatever you want. And it works, but to make it work you need to be a computer expert.

So, outside of Unix (and within an extent even within Unix) we have complex programs that do many tasks. And the more complex the software is, the harder it is to keep track of every detail and of how individual parts of the program affect each other, up to the point that even the original one-person author of the software cannot foresee how it will act under all circumstances. And when you have a team of programmers, it gets even harder to predict and yes, test, everything. And when you add an application programming interface, whether in the form of separate applications or plug-ins, you no longer have a program, you have a system, and it becomes even more unpredictable.

This is true of Windows, this is true of Macintosh, this is true of Vegas, this is true of Premiere, this is true of Edius. This is true of NLEs, this is true of graphics programs, this is true of sound editors, this is true of word processors, this is true of any software that does more than one simple task. And it is true of hardware. Just look at Toyota's recent mysterious acceleration problems that no one understands why they happen.

So, yes, they all have bugs and they all have fixes. And a list of fixes does not show how bad a software system is. What it does show is that its programmers are constantly working on improving their product. A list of bug fixes is a good thing. Vegas is a good thing. Premiere is a good thing. Edius is a good thing. Avid is a good thing. They are all good. And none of them is for everyone because no two editors (I mean us, humans who edit using the software) work the same way.

All of us here are creative people. We all want to do more than any software allows us to do, and we all come up with creative ways of overcoming the limitations of the software. And no software can keep up with our demands because the moment some software developer gives us the tool to do something we could not do before, we want more (and it is good we do).

[Stuart Campbell]

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

This is great advice for people who can absolutely dictate what comes in the door. I don't get that luxury.



Well, considering that Vegas doesn't support P2 (without a third party application), and my EX1 files are choking Vegas 9 at the moment, I think you'll understand my position...

Yep, fair point Perrone. I have the luxury of dictating what we shoot on and I design (as far as is possible) our entire production process around what I know works. If I was in a news environment for example where I was receiving a multitude of formats I definitely would not choose Vegas. Even the other day we delivered a small doco for broadcast for a new client and they sent us delivery requirements that gave us a headache in Vegas.

As long as we can stick to what we know works Vegas is great (I'm talking about 7 here). It allows us to work creatively, quickly and efficiently. 9 was just a disappointment. Totally unstable and slow, so we won;t be using that again.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Stuart Campbell

Yep, fair point Perrone. I have the luxury of dictating what we shoot on and I design (as far as is possible) our entire production process around what I know works. If I was in a news environment for example where I was receiving a multitude of formats I definitely would not choose Vegas.

Yea, that's the thing. I shoot XDCamEX or DV. I have built reasonable workflows for those products in V6-8 (HD in Vegas 8). But I also need to ingest ProRes, DNxHD, HDV (Sony and JVC), AVCHD, Canon AVC, RED, Mpeg2 for DVD conversion, Flash/SWF files, and am trying to gear up to take in ARRIRAW with the Alexa coming on line. It's a headache, believe me.

Originally Posted by Stuart Campbell

9 was just a disappointment. Totally unstable and slow, so we won;t be using that again.

As we've seen in this thread, it works great for some, not at all for others. What can you do..

[Brian Luce]

Originally Posted by Adam Stanislav

That said, I do not go to Edius forum and tell everyone that Edius is no good. This here is a Vegas forum. So, if Vegas does not work for someone, do not use it. But do not tell everyone here that Vegas is broken, Vegas is no good, and things like that. .

I disagree. Vegas has issues right now, like it's never had. It's losing its viability. This point needs illumination for sake of those wishing to buy as well as those at Sony who develop.

That's one of the reason these forums exist, to point out what working and what isn't. Vegas isn't a human being, it's a software! you make it sound as if it's somehow offensive to criticize it.

[Mike Kujbida]

Originally Posted by Brian Luce

That's one of the reason these forums exist, to point out what working and what isn't.

With the possible exception of a beta tester or two on here, I have my doubts that Sony reads this forum.
The only way Vegas can get better is if everyone with any kind of problem reports it to Sony.
They can't fix what they don't know about and the more users that complain about a specific problem, the more energy will be devoted to fixing that specific problem.
In an ideal world, that's the way it should work :-)
I have no idea whether it does or not but I prefer to be a "glass half full" person rather than a "glass half empty" one and have submitted my share of bug reports over the years, most of which have been successfully resolved thanks to Sony.

[Malcolm Dyer]

Hello
I started my NLE editing experience with Vegas 6 which I think stopped at update 'd'. Stable and reliable.
I then upgraded to 7 which went to update 'e' which actually broke it so I and others (I think including the very knowledgeable John Meyer) stick with 'd'. Stable and reliable.
As I had an EX1, and after some hesitation (waited for update), I upgraded to version 8 Pro which went to update 'c'.
I own 2 copies of 8 Pro and am generally satisfied with the performance.of it. I have not experienced major crashes or other issues but I am a basic user editing HDV and EX1 mostly.
As for 9 Pro, I am still at the hesitation phase and likely to remain so for the foreseeable future.
I don't need native editing of XDCAM EX and can see few reasons to adopt the bag of headaches that Vegas has become. I have not left Vegas, I just don't want a bar of 9 Pro.

I think it is perfectly valid for members to speak of their problems and misgivings about the product on this and other forums especially in a thread such as this.
Without the forums how would I know to give 9 Pro a wide berth.
Even on the official Vegas forum there is constant questioning as to whether Sony even take any notice.
Some keep banging on about filing a support ticket when half the time the response is to spend hours doing a clean reinstall or similar only to wind up where you started. As a technician I am familiar with customer support staff who give flippant standard answers and deny a problem until a fix is quietly slipped out. There is absolutely no assurance there will be another update to 9 Pro. You will probably have to buy 10 Pro which might fix the remaining or new bugs and introduce a whole batch of new ones.
I can not understand why so many are determined to make it work for them as most have upgraded and could go back to 8 if they have not overwritten their veggies.
I am also curious at the aggressive response of some, who I suspect are part of the chosen few (beta testers), when people complain about repeatable problems. Are they touchy because they missed the bug and it reflects badly on them or are they just zealots who will not hear a bad word about Vegas. Their claims that Vegas works perfectly for them seems at odds with people who go and have dinner while 9.0d loads a project or have a Gradient Fill in PTT.

As for the OP my advice is try to buy a copy of 8 Pro and save yourself the grief. Vegas is good all round NLE but just not if you want the latest version. Learning new software is hard enough without the software having issues.

Malcolm