is Sony Vegas a good all-rounder software?

[Edward Troxel]

I have Vegas Pro 9 32-bit on an XP SP2 machine (actually this laptop) and Vegas Pro 64-bit on a Vista 64 machine. My main shooting format is DV. However, I've also edited a shoot from another shooter who gives me mts files straight from a Panasonic camera card that is 1920x1080 footage. In either case, I simply drop them on the timeline, edit, add effects as needed, and render out to DVD or print to DV tape. My projects routinely run 2 hours long.

[Gerald Webb]

well this is interesting isnt it. LOL.
one mans dog is another mans unicorn.
Just a thought, everyone on here would likely have some example of their work on the net, whether it be ads, promo vids, live bands (me ), even the guys doing doco type work must have something out there.
Show your stuff guys, then when one person says its very stable/unstable, other people can get a reference to WHAT he/she is doing when it is stable/unstable.

Perrone, you have been saying for a while now Vegas is causing you problems, what are you doing to it?
I think you mentioned in another thread that you had a clean machine and couldn't get the render done without breaking it up into sections on a recent project, you have shown me recently that your knowledge of PC's is far superior to mine (thanks for your help by the way) surely you dont think that this is normal behavior for Vegas?

Just a thought, I recently had a bit of a dig at Final Cut, you know why I think everyone say's its so stable?
It wont let you do anything, codecs it allows are very limited, frame sizes and rates too, it doesn't want you messing with its head.
When things go bad in Vegas sit back and have a think, What have I got here? Hmmmmmm....
5 different codecs, 3 different resolutions, interlaced, progressive, why dont we throw in a 5k still and zoom and pan it as well.
Vegas is like the fat kid at McDonalds, "Gimme gimme, Ill take it all."
While that is great at first, IMO its what lets the program down as well. It will accept almost anything, but then stumbles as it uses it

If you really want to get serious,
Clean Windows install,
C drive is for Windows, Vegas only ( i have cs 4 on there as well. Even if it does get buggy, reinstall and up and running in 45min, no joke thats how quick it is )
convert all your media to one size, one codec.
get faster drives, my own crashes have stopped since doing this.

If your still having problems after this, buy a Mac and learn FCP.

Ive had a love hate relationship with Vegas in the past, but as I work out the bugs in MY work flow, the better Vegas seems to get.

well that turned out to be a bit of rant, lol
just my 2c :)

[Stuart Campbell]

Gerald that's a great reply and a good bit of advice.

I've had and still have a love hate relationship with the software. The only way, for me, for a problem free workflow was to sit back and figure out what was causing the problem.

I run Vegas 7.0E on a dual core 2.66 machine with XP Pro on it. It has no internet connection, it does nothing but run Vegas (via Cineform NEO HDV) and runs faultlessly. I used to have problems with crashing but discovered that any Cineform AVI with corrupted timecode or bad dropout was causing Vegas to crash or simply close. In fact it happened the day before yesterday but I know that's the only reason for it happening.

I upgraded to Vegas 8, but just didn't like it so never used it. I upgraded to 9, liked it, but couldn't deal with the unbelievably long amount of time it takes to import new material into a project so have binned it. In fact having V9 on my machine was also contributing to V7 crashing so I binned it, did a system restore and hey presto I'm back to crash free.

I mainly shoot HD, HDV or DV for delivery to DVD, broadcast PAL and web. Even the stuff I deliver to broadcast is shot in HDV or HD, dropped onto an HD timeline and rendered out to DV. It really is easy.

However, as soon as someone asks for something different, like they did the other day........things start getting interesting.

My advice; Choose your workflow, make sure it works for you in Vegas, and try to stick to it. Go messing around with a multitude of formats, codecs etc and you're asking for trouble.

Now.....i want to upgrade our cameras to tapeless, P2 for example.....and I'm wondering whether Vegas is the right software now.......my research tells me not!

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Gerald Webb

Perrone, you have been saying for a while now Vegas is causing you problems, what are you doing to it?
I think you mentioned in another thread that you had a clean machine and couldn't get the render done without breaking it up into sections on a recent project, you have shown me recently that your knowledge of PC's is far superior to mine (thanks for your help by the way) surely you dont think that this is normal behavior for Vegas?

Actually, i do think it's common behavior for Vegas. Forums are full of people having similar problems. SCS has acknowledged several of these problems already, so they aren't just the perception of a few users with rogue machines.

I'm trimming down 3 hours of footage now shot on my EX1. But I am doing it at home on 8.0c because I have to deliver it. I didn't even bother using any of my real machines with V9 on them. I don't trust it any more.

Originally Posted by Gerald Webb

If you really want to get serious,
Clean Windows install,
C drive is for Windows, Vegas only ( i have cs 4 on there as well. Even if it does get buggy, reinstall and up and running in 45min, no joke thats how quick it is )
convert all your media to one size, one codec.
get faster drives, my own crashes have stopped since doing this.

If your still having problems after this, buy a Mac and learn FCP.

Been there, done that. Three times on my primary editing machine, three times on the laptop. New OS from scratch, scrubbed data drives. Same issues with Vegas 9.x

Using a single codec might work, and it might not. But if I am going to do that, I might as well use apps that support it natively and accelerate that codec instead of just limiting myself. If I could lock myself down to just DV, I am sure Vegas would work great. Unfortunately, Vegas chokes on files from my Sony camera, it chokes on files from the 5D/7D, and it chokes on files from the other cameras I need to support.

And buying a Mac is not something I am going to do or even want to do.

[Cliff Etzel]

I did a fresh install of Win 7 64 bit, did all updates first. Installed Vegas Pro 9.0d, dragged AND imported a single m2t clip from my source drive - Vegas hangs for over 15 seconds and goes non-responsive. That was the last straw for me.

Here's my experience with Vegas Pro any more: out of memory errors and frequent crashes interrupt MY creative workflow

the inability to have full frame playback GREATLY interrupts my creative workflow... I can't even see where to cut

To have to replace the VP9.0d version of the aviplug.dll with the one from 9.0c to resolve slow load times - that's not a professional app in my book. To have the deshaker plug in done by a third party hooking to shareware on the back end while AVID provides a superior route natively and Edius can utilize Mercalli without issues - again, I ask....

In my work, Edius has so slapped vegas around the room that the pro moniker on the Vegas title is, TBH, a misnomer.

I WAS a strong advocate for Vegas since version 6 but it has cost me time and money since version 8 with all the workarounds. Grass Valley Edius (personally) and AVID (others I know) both have shown how serious they are at meeting the needs of serious professional POWER users around the world - and they once again proved it at NAB. Final Cut is a non issue since its attached to the worlds largest dongle supplied by Apple and at NAB the SONY broadcast booth was using what NLE to demonstrate? That would be Final Cut Pro (blech)

I've given Vegas many chances in my post production work - yet it has let me down time & time again. When a fresh install of Windows 7 64bit with all updates applied first and then a base install of Vegas Pro only, a quad core Q9400, 8GB matched ram, separate HD's for source and render and a standard m2t clip locks it up (both 32 & 64bit versions) - that's the straw that broke the camels back for me. And it wasn't just a single m2t clip - I tried multiple ones from my tape based HC7's that were ingested to my internal 750GB 7200rpm sata source drive - same result.

Sorry guys - I don't feel the love in SCS Vegas Pro any longer. I'll stick to a known STABLE/RELIABLE NLE like Edius or Avid since they are, IMO, professional tools meant to get paying work done on time and on budget.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Stuart Campbell

My advice; Choose your workflow, make sure it works for you in Vegas, and try to stick to it. Go messing around with a multitude of formats, codecs etc and you're asking for trouble.

This is great advice for people who can absolutely dictate what comes in the door. I don't get that luxury.

Originally Posted by Stuart Campbell

Now.....i want to upgrade our cameras to tapeless, P2 for example.....and I'm wondering whether Vegas is the right software now.......my research tells me not!

Well, considering that Vegas doesn't support P2 (without a third party application), and my EX1 files are choking Vegas 9 at the moment, I think you'll understand my position...

[Chris Barcellos]

Federico:

If you work your way around the net, its always the same people whining and moaning. The way I see using Vegas is to keep it simple.

Simple way to look at this, is if you are doing long complicated projects with multiple codecs, you are tempting breakdown in any NLE. Some will handle it better. But there is another solution.

I convert everything as far as HD goes, to Cineform. It will cost you $160 to $ 500 depending on what you need, but it is of great benefit to working in most NLE. By converting to a common codec, you aren't asking for a problem with mixing codecs in a project. It works clean and simple and for me, there isn't a problem. And because Cinefom is a near lossless codec, I can afford to edit my projects in littler chunks, render, and then edit those chunks into a final total project.

Now I know some try to slap a 2 hour project together in a single project file. I think that is asking for trouble. It seems logical to me to break any project down into small components that don't tax the processor no matter what kind of memory you or resources you have on board.

Keep it simple.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

Federico:

If you work your way around the net, its always the same people whining and moaning. The way I see using Vegas is to keep it simple.

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

I convert everything as far as HD goes, to Cineform. It will cost you $160 to $ 500 depending on what you need

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

And because Cinefom is a near lossless codec, I can afford to edit my projects in littler chunks, render, and then edit those chunks into a final total project.

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

Now I know some try to slap a 2 hour project together in a single project file. I think that is asking for trouble.

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

It seems logical to me to break any project down into small components that don't tax the processor no matter what kind of memory you or resources you have on board.

Keep it simple.

Let me see if I understand this right...

Your suggestion to this poster is to:

A. Buy a $500 NLE
B. Purchase a third party program at $160-500
C. Transcode to a somewhat lossy codec that cost him $160-$500
D. Break his project into little chunks
E. Render each little chunk then bring the little chunks BACK into the timeline for a final project render, losing even more information in the process.

And you consider this "keeping it simple"? And you wonder why people are complaining? Seriously? When you can lay 10 hours of HD onto a single timeline in a $200 program like Edius Neo and have realtime playback and not jump through any of these hoops, and have it be bulletproof?

Or for the same money as buying Vegas Pro and Cineform he can buy the full blown Edius package which is faster, has accelerated single codec workflow (CanopusHQ), and can do everything Vegas can do and more?

Yes, all over the internet, the same people complain. Because the problems never get solved or addressed, and the problems continue to cause headaches for people who can't (or aren't willing to) keep throwing money at the problems for workarounds to a supposedly professional application that should need none of it.

I've never had any issue trying to "slap together" a two hour project in Premiere, nor in Avid, nor in Vegas 6, 7, or 8. I've cut more than 20 hours in the same project in Vegas 8 without so much as a hiccup. And that kind of work is routine in Avid and Final Cut.

Whatever...

[Chris Barcellos]

Exactly what I am saying. I am simply relating what works for me, that is all I am saying, if it doesn't work for you, don't use it. Intermediate codecs are nothing new and certainly should be considered. There are other benefits that come with Cineform, but that is not what this is about.

You have seemed to make it your personal campaign to malign a decent editing program, and I think that is not what this forum is about. The OP was posting and asking about Vegas, not looking for a sales pitch for Edius or another program.

We all know that as new codecs and ways of acquiring footage come on board, and as new processes develop, the NLE programmers run behind the curve. I think Vegas has shown that it addresses the problems, just the same way that Final Cut, Edius, and Adobe do. Take a snap shot at any given moment, and one will be ahead of the other. But resolutions come.

As a Vegas user I prefer the freedoms that Vegas provides in the GUI, over that provided in the more conventional NLE's, and I think that is wheremany Vegas users find their benefit. Vegas is not for everyone, nor is any other NLE.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

Exactly what I am saying. I am simply relating what works for me, that is all I am saying, if it doesn't for you, don't use it. Intermediate codecs are nothing new and certainly should be considered. There are other benefits that come with Cineform, but that is not what this is about.

Intermediate codecs are certainly nothing new. And as simply as you are stating what works for you, I am stating what does not work for me. Two sides of the same coin. I see zero other benefits to Cineform, but it certainly does improve the playback speed on Vegas. The 10-bit is nice as well to be fair.

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

You have seemed to make it your personal campaign to malign a decent editing program, and I think that is not what this forum is about. The OP was posting and asking about Vegas, not looking for a sales pitch for Edius or another program.

I am in no way trying to malign any decent editing program. I am merely pointing out weaknesses in an editing program based on this posters stated needs. He says he has a moderate laptop and wants to cut mpeg2 based files. You are pointing a finger at me for suggesting a different application that might work better, while you seemingly ignore the fact that you are suggesting he spend money on a different codec that will work better?

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

We all know that as new codecs and ways of acquiring footage come on board, and as new processes develop, the NLE programmers run behind the curve. I think Vegas has shown that it addresses the problems, just the same way that Final Cut, Edius, and Adobe do. Take a snap shot at any given moment, and one will be ahead of the other. But resolutions come.

Yes, NLE programmers run behind the curve on codecs. But the poster is asking about two SONY Mpeg2 based codecs that have been around for years now. Support for those codecs are in every pro NLE you can name, and most consumer based one's as well. This shouldn't be anything difficult. Nor should it be out of line to ask that a $500 application not need a $500 codec purchase to edit files from a camera by the same company. And for the record, Vegas has NEVER addressed the problem like FCP and Edius do. Those companies have built-in codecs to avoid these issues and then they go so far as to accelerate them in hardware to ensure full playback speed. Something Vegas has never done. At least not in my 7 year history with it.

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

As a Vegas user I prefer the freedoms that Vegas provides in the GUI, over that provided in the more conventional NLE's, and I think that is wheremany Vegas users find their benefit. Vegas is not for everyone, nor is any other NLE.

You are correct in that Vegas is not for everyone. But in regards to this poster, at this moment in time, Vegas is not a viable solution based on his posted criteria. Yes, workarounds exist. And I've posted them time and again. Just as I can say alternate solutions exist that should also be considered.

Honestly, if you like Vegas and it's working well for you, stay on 8.0c. If you are looking to jump, download a trial of the full Edius program. I'll defer to Cliff on the specifics as he's gone toward Edius while I have gone a different direction.

I just reinstalled Vegas 8.0c for future work. Since 9.x is not backwards compatible, I can't open my current projects in it, but anything from this point forward will be done in 8.0c or 8.1.

-P

[Edward Troxel]

I'm all for pointing out issues and discussing them but I've seen about enough in this thread. Let's put this to rest now or I will.

Perrone, Vegas isn't working for you and what you do - fine, we get that. But also tell Sony what issues you're having so they can fix them via their website.

Personally, Vegas does everything I need without your issues so I use it. I like the way it works. I would also be LOST without scripting. I don't break my projects into small pieces or convert to different codecs - even with HD footage. Plus, I don't like the complicated methods found in the other NLEs for the same things I easily do in Vegas.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Edward Troxel

Perrone, Vegas isn't working for you and what you do - fine, we get that. But also tell Sony what issues you're having so they can fix them via their website.

I've told Sony. Through their forums, through feedback, through their webinars, and I even spent 2 hours talking to the Vegas program manager. They addressed some issues I had with the program (increased support for RED, DPX, captioning) but have left other showstoppers off the list.

Originally Posted by Edward Troxel

Personally, Vegas does everything I need without your issues so I use it. I like the way it works. I would also be LOST without scripting. I don't break my projects into small pieces or convert to different codecs - even with HD footage. Plus, I don't like the complicated methods found in the other NLEs for the same things I easily do in Vegas.

I like the way Vegas works too... when it works (for me). Which is why I've kept it for 7 years. Like Cliff, I kept hoping that they would solve the core issues with each release. And I kept asking my purchasing dept, to renew my versions... I've bought every release since Vegas 6. My workflow doesn't require the use of scripting. And I need to be able to handle a multitude of codecs. Our uses and needs are different. And that's fine.

I do wish people would be cognizant of the fact that I do recommend Vegas to others. In circumstances where I feel it's the right tool. I'll tell ANYONE right now, that Vegas is absolutely the best tool for RED on the PC. That will likely change in a couple of weeks. But for the past year or so, it's been true. It's a terrific editor for self-contained folks doing DV or HDV work. In fact, it excels at it.

The program only begins to show cracks as you need to do more collaborative work with other professionals, or with higher end codecs or digital cinema. That is my impression after years of using it in various ways.

That's all I've got, I hope the original poster has gotten his questions answered and I hope we can put this to bed.

[Chris Barcellos]

For the OP, I edit primarily from HDV footage from the FX1, sister to the Z1, from the Canon HV20, and from (HDV again), and from the Canon 5D. All of these put additional strain on your processing capability as the system interprets individual frames on the go. Add color correction and other filters, and preview gets bogged down. I use Cineform as an intermediate to relieve some that pressure, and it works well with that. I have also converted HVX200 mxf files in the same manner.

In fact, the earlier versions of Vegas had the early Cineform codec on board for intermediate editing. I have simply carried that forward to current versions, and I am glad I did.

[Bill Binder]

I do a lot of multimedia pieces that mix multitrack audio (using loads of audio VST plugins) with panned/zoomed photos (keyframed a la Ken Burns style) and video with fx (mostly Cineform versions of 24p and 30p-conformed-to-24p 5D2 footage). Vegas 8c is rock solid for this workflow and is so mind-boggling awesome at doing it inside of a single app it still impresses me 'til this day after years of using it. I mean the app is a full-blown audio editor with unlimited tracks, multiple buses, VST-support, automation/keyframing, etc. But to be able to drop video into the timeline with the audio like that, and to be able to pan/zoom using keyframes on photos without leaving the app is just KILLER. But then again, I'm a one-man show, so this works for me. I seriously can't imagine using anything else for what I'm into.

[Adam Stanislav]

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

download a trial of the full Edius program.

Edius is tedious. It does not use the standard Windows interface. It has its own black background and the menus are so tiny you need a microscope to read them. No thanks! Vegas is so easy to use. I don't understand why anyone would use anything else. And yes, it is a great all-rounder.