Which New Editor: Vegas or Premier?

[Mark Goodsell]

Hello. I am active on the Sony Z5 board. I'm basically shopping for a new video editor and going to ramp up to a new PC to fit the editor I go with. I posted a few things on this group already about Vegas and I really appreciate your help and suggestions. Vegas Pro and Premier Production Suite are the two I currently have in my sights. I was a long-time Pinnacle Studio user and I've dabbled with Vegas some years ago. I found it was quite stable but took a while to figure out the UI. But other than that it worked fine. I was attracted to the stability of Vegas. There didn't seem to be much in the way of special effects at that time, and, of course, the audio portion of it ...and Sound Forge is quite nice. I did not use it enough to become an expert by any means and I'm sure a lot has changed since Vegas 4.

I have not used Premier, ever, but I am attracted to it due to the ability to integrate Photoshop and Afteraffects and how they 'supposedly' all integrate together. It seems like there is an endless number of features and correction/creation tools and capabilities. I can see myself using a number of these features to gussy up my videos. I don't know how well the DVD authoring tools work with Premier but from the tutorials the whole package appears pretty powerful. I would probably buy the Production Suite which is about $1,600 and includes Premier, Photoshop, Flash, SonicFire and a bunch of other programs. About all I know about Premier is from the online tutorials which I must say look pretty impressive.

I am ramping up to produce a series of travel videos. My needs will be to produce a broadcast ready product where some effects would be nice but it's not by any means core to our product. Color correction will be. DVD creation and web clips are going to be essential as well as music creation. We shoot HDV. AVCHD probably isn't too far around the corner for us and a 7D is on the wish list. There are a few other pet projects I would like to get into where effects from, say, after effects and photoshop would likely be required.

I'm not trying to incite a flame war here, I'm looking for honest and thoughtful discussion based on relatively recent experience (programs do change over time). I've heard Premier is slow, some stability issues, audio tools are weak.

In your opinion, what is the Good, Bad, Ugly between Vegas and Premier?

Thank you for your insight.

[John Stakes]

Hello Mark,
Unfortunately (well, fortunately in the long run) you are going to get the most valuable information through your own research. I can say that I don't hear many bad things about Vegas, though I have never used it, and probably never will. I just don't like it, the interface or anything about it. Oh, and I am proudly biassed ; ).

I can however speak for Premiere. I have worked with Adobe CS3 for about 2 years now. I also worked with CS2 for about a year. CS4 I hear is not as good as the previous version, and I also hear that they removed some of the very valuable features that were part of CS3. One thing about Premiere...the user interface is probably the easiest to navigate of all that I have seen. As far as color correction, it has some great tools built in...I believe After Effects does as well, but costs a pretty penny! If yuo go this route, I would consider Encore for your DVD authoring.

Not to further confuse you, but I'd say the most professional NLE I have used is FCP. In fact, I have already purchased the software and will be using it to edit some upcoming projects. Depending on how that goes I may make the switch.

Hope this helps!

JS

[Edward Troxel]

As John said, the best one is the one that suits YOU. I've used Vegas for about 10 years and it suits me great. I've done some things in Premiere and it simply feels more complicated - to me. I can do more, easier, faster in Vegas. However, I'm sure the opposite is true for John.

If you're not familiar with any NLE, you'll probably pick up Vegas faster. If you are familiar with an NLE, you'll pick up the one you're familiar with faster. So it's a really hard question to answer.

So, Mark, sorry for the vague answer but it's a really personal question.

[Mark Goodsell]

Thanks for the replies, guys. Good point on FCP. I am quite comfortable with the Windows platform, and, out of reasons of proprietary computer parts and costs, I've been heading toward Windows based applications. I am also familiar with Photoshop and some other Adobe software (used to be Macromedia) like Dreamweaver and Fireworks. Those don't play into the video editing matrix really, but will be on my desktop.

What about features and speed? How do they compare to Premier? What about the audio tools they each have?

Thanks in advance.

[Edward Troxel]

Vegas wins on audio - hands down. After all, it STARTED as a multi-track audio editor.

Vegas has more compositing options which will require you to go to After Effects on Adobe. But, feature-wise, both will edit your video. It's HOW those features are implemented that swayed things for me. For example, being able to simply drag the right clip over the left clip and create a cross-fade, that's something that totally makes since in Vegas. But with Premiere, it's a much more complicated process to create a simple crossfade.

As I said, the best way is to test them both. See what works for you.

[Laurence Kingston]

I just wanted to mention that after months of struggling with FCP (version 2 way back when) I still wasn't able to do this simplest of edits. I tried Vegas and immediately felt right at home. The fit between how Vegas works and how my mind works is very good.

Premier Pro has some cool things it can do like transcribing the audio into words and letting you do searches for phrases. If you're doing a documentary that could be really cool.

Vegas has a scripting language that quite frankly, I simply wouldn't want to live without. Yeah you need to buy the scripts separately (the good ones like Excalibur and Ultimate-S), but they let you do things in minutes that would take hours in FCP or Premier Pro.

My preference is Vegas, but I sure wish it would do that audio transcribe/search thing from Premier Pro. Each platform has cool things that the other one doesn't.

[Stan Chase]

Have you considered using neither? I'm pretty impressed with Edius Neo 2.5. I'm not biased towards any pro editor. You can download a 30 day demo to test drive it. Quite a bit cheaper also:

EDIUS Neo 2 Booster | Grass Valley

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Stan Chase

Have you considered using neither? I'm pretty impressed with Edius Neo 2.5. I'm not biased towards any pro editor. You can download a 30 day demo to test drive it. Quite a bit cheaper also:

EDIUS Neo 2 Booster | Grass Valley

Neo Booster is missing far too many things to be a serious challenger to a Pro app, but Edius 5.5 will certainly be a strong contender.

[Stan Chase]

Vegas (Movie Studio) and Premiere (Elements) have upgrade paths similar to Neo 2.5 -> Edius 5.5.

IMO, Neo 2.5 is the best of the three serious, affordable editors with pro aspirations. No transcoding needed for the OP's future AVCHD and 7D footage is a big plus.

[Edward Troxel]

Stan, Perrone, and everyone else...

As I said in my original post, it's really a matter of personal taste. I've looked at Edius. To me it's definitely more difficult to use than Vegas and I've seen zero advantages to Edius. I can easily get stuttering previews in both. I don't have near the compositing options, keyframing stinks, adding transitions is odd, and I just now figured out how to "fade" using Edius. But, many people like it a lot so it's definitely a valid option for those people.

The bottom line is that each person must choose the one that fits THEM best.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Edward Troxel

Stan, Perrone, and everyone else...

As I said in my original post, it's really a matter of personal taste.

Maybe, maybe not. What you LIKE better may well certainly be. What may be the best tool for the job, may not be what you like most.

Originally Posted by Edward Troxel

I've looked at Edius. To me it's definitely more difficult to use than Vegas and I've seen zero advantages to Edius. I can easily get stuttering previews in both.

You used Edius 5.5? Where did you get it?

And to be fair Edward, in all the time I've seen you post about NLEs, I've never heard you say anything positive about any of them except Vegas. I've found positives in every NLE I've used, whether they be to my personal preference or taste.

Originally Posted by Edward Troxel

The bottom line is that each person must choose the one that fits THEM best.

I'd modify that to say, each person must choose what fits *their work* the best. I really don't have a lot of affinity for Adobe products, but I'd certainly spend a lot of time in After Effects simply because that's the right tool for the job in the market space where it competes. I don't particularly see the point in using a video editor to sweeten audio, but if you want one that does, then Vegas is clearly the best. If it's compositing you need, Vegas has rudimentary tools, but After Effects rules the roost. If you absolutely DO NOT want to transcode your AVCHD, then Edius Neo-booster or 5.5/6.0 will be your best bet.

Different jobs, different tools.

[Mike Calla]

Originally Posted by Edward Troxel
"The bottom line is that each person must choose the one that fits THEM best."

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford
"I'd modify that to say, each person must choose what fits *their work* the best."



________________________

I would say that THEM and THEIR is the same difference...

________________________


just some random thoughts

...For what I edit, mostly 30sec spots and very recently music videos, Vegas has been great. Used PPro recently again and some things i do in Vegas with a drag of the mouse is, as Edward said a "(...)much more complicated process to create a simple crossfade", in PPro. And to me the PPro layout has...too much, to put it simply.

PPro does have much more hardware options. Vegas' hardware options SUCK! For colour correct HD monitoring i had to spend BIG$$$$$$ on an AJA HD-SDI board and a Panasonic TH42PD12 monitor. I also use a JVC TM-H150 CRT via firewire and my commercials play to 100s of millions of TV viewers, so yes Vegas can do great work (btw seeing my work broadcast in HD for the first time was awesome).

The PPro suite, although pricey in comparison to Vegas is about what you'd pay for Vegas, ACID and Sound Forge together and you get more unique apps with PPRo.

Never used for me is Edius - another thread here piqued my interested though and i REALLY like the Grass valley realtime hardware support i saw on their website

I really like Vegas, been through many versions and its been SOLID(ACID and Sound Forge as well) ...others have had problems, obviously - and of course every app is going to have problems on some systems! Even mates of mine who use AVID in high end post houses have AVID system techs on speed dial if and when things go south (and yes they bitc* and complain about AVID as well).


And Perrone, stating Edward has never said a good word about any other apps (is a shot in the dark unless you're combing through 6000+ posts) isn't reason a to dismiss his insight in to Vegas (You'll hear me bad mouth Nuendo till the comes come home:).

BTW i recently just had about hour of 1080p Cineform on the time line and three hours in the bins trying various versions of a music vid and vegas was solid!

Obviously I AM biased towards Vegas - but travel vids - which i've done in the past - worked for me in Vegas.

in the end - Download demos (does PPRo have a demo version?) and try out some real projects for yourself. Maybe Vegas and PPro won't meet your requirements at all and you can mortgage your house to buy a MAC, FCP and hardware:) We can windbag it here all night but in the end you gotta try before you buy!!

[Andy Tejral]

Well, since there is no editor named Premier, I guess you'd have to go with Vegas.

In this business, unless you never create titles, spelling counts.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Mike Calla

Originally Posted by Edward Troxel
"The bottom line is that each person must choose the one that fits THEM best."

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford
"I'd modify that to say, each person must choose what fits *their work* the best."



________________________

I would say that THEM and THEIR is the same difference...

________________________

I wouldn't. I prefer the way Vegas operates. I can cut simple jobs on it MUCH faster than anything else I've ever used. So Vegas suits me personally. However, Vegas cannot do captioning. Therefore it is useless for my work now. So what suits *ME* does not suit my work. Big difference.

Originally Posted by Mike Calla

just some random thoughts

...For what I edit, mostly 30sec spots and very recently music videos, Vegas has been great. Used PPro recently again and some things i do in Vegas with a drag of the mouse is, as Edward said a "(...)much more complicated process to create a simple crossfade", in PPro. And to me the PPro layout has...too much, to put it simply.

Yes, this is why I left Premiere. It was damned hard to do very simple things like crossfades. Vegas was so much faster and simpler, I couldn't understand why more things didn't work that way.

Originally Posted by Mike Calla

PPro does have much more hardware options. Vegas' hardware options SUCK! For colour correct HD monitoring i had to spend BIG$$$$$$ on an AJA HD-SDI board and a Panasonic TH42PD12 monitor. I also use a JVC TM-H150 CRT via firewire and my commercials play to 100s of millions of TV viewers, so yes Vegas can do great work (btw seeing my work broadcast in HD for the first time was awesome).

Yep, and I did color for my first real film in Vegas. And seeing my work on the big screen for the first time, and my name in the credits was a similar thrill I imagine. So I agree, Vegas can do great work.

Originally Posted by Mike Calla

The PPro suite, although pricey in comparison to Vegas is about what you'd pay for Vegas, ACID and Sound Forge together and you get more unique apps with PPRo.

Agreed. People are quick to point out the cost savings of Vegas versus FCP, CS4, etc. But to be honest, you get more with the other suites. That only matters if you need the features of the other suites. If all you do is cut videos and you want to do a bit of sound work, Vegas is a terrific bargain.

Originally Posted by Mike Calla

Never used for me is Edius - another thread here piqued my interested though and i REALLY like the Grass valley realtime hardware support i saw on their website

They've been around a long while. I still have some of my old Canopus hardware that accelerated Premiere.

Originally Posted by Mike Calla

I really like Vegas, been through many versions and its been SOLID(ACID and Sound Forge as well) ...others have had problems, obviously - and of course every app is going to have problems on some systems! Even mates of mine who use AVID in high end post houses have AVID system techs on speed dial if and when things go south (and yes they bitc* and complain about AVID as well).

Yep, none of them is infallible. Vegas was pretty darn solid for me until I went to VPro 9. Then the wheels fell off the wagon. But I needed the RED support.

Originally Posted by Mike Calla

And Perrone, stating Edward has never said a good word about any other apps (is a shot in the dark unless you're combing through 6000+ posts) isn't reason a to dismiss his insight in to Vegas (You'll hear me bad mouth Nuendo till the comes come home:).

I didn't say he had never said a good word about other apps. I said I had never SEEN him do so. And I've been here and on other forums where he posts for quite some time. And I am certainly not dismissing his insight into Vegas. I am merely noting that his experiences don't mirror mine and numerous others' experiences in a lot of cases.

Originally Posted by Mike Calla

BTW i recently just had about hour of 1080p Cineform on the time line and three hours in the bins trying various versions of a music vid and vegas was solid!

Sure Vegas is solid handling Cineform. But according to ardent fans of the program, you shouldn't have to transcode. Otherwise there's no real difference to going to ProRes in FCP, or DNxHD in Avid, or CanopusHQ in Edius. The question then, is it as solid when you don't transcode to it's preferred format with that much material. I know the answer for me.

Originally Posted by Mike Calla

Obviously I AM biased towards Vegas - but travel vids - which i've done in the past - worked for me in Vegas.

Cool. I am biased toward what gets the job done for me. I don't care who's name is on the box.

Originally Posted by Mike Calla

in the end - Download demos (does PPRo have a demo version?) and try out some real projects for yourself. Maybe Vegas and PPro won't meet your requirements at all and you can mortgage your house to buy a MAC, FCP and hardware:) We can windbag it here all night but in the end you gotta try before you buy!!

Good advice.

[Dale Guthormsen]

Good afternoon,


What an interesting thread!!! Everyone having something valuable to add!!

I abndoned Pennicle due to instability, Still have PP but have let it go for the most part do to what I would call awkwardness and its 1.5.

I love the workflow of Vegas and wont abandone it, However I moved to version Nine several months back and just recently have had huge issues with Vegas for the first time!!

I took versions 9 out and put 8.0 c back in and all seems to have fundementally rectified itself!!

I still believe it is a good idea to have morre than one editing program, ideally one strong in an area the other is weak.