Same problem now in Vegas 9 at DVinfo.net

Ron Cooper · February 21st, 2010, 02:36 AM

I have just installed the latest version of Vegas pro 9.0C after using vers. 8 & having problems of the same nature as I still have now. The timeline renders & plays perfectly.

It is a short, straight-forward, 6 min. video having DV and AVCHD on the timeline with no filters or effects, just cuts & fades but has 3 audio tracks. The AVCHD was shot using a SONY camcorder and I am (very frustratingly), trying to print the finished edit back to DV Tape on a SONY HVR-A1P camcorder. The editing was done on a SONY VIAO VGN-Z46GD 2.8g 2 core duo/6g ram laptop computer running Vista 64bit.

I have opened the project now in Vegas 9 and when I try to "Print Video to tape", all appears to be OK with rendering etc. but when the actual tape starts recording, after about 20 seconds with tape running OK but no video appearing, I get the following error messages -

"An error occurred while creating the media file.

An unexpected error has occurred."

It gives no indication as to what the error is, and I have tried re-connecting & turning on & off the camcorder to no avail.
I have double checked settings etc and they all seem to be OK. - PAL DV widescreen etc.

This is extremely disappointing as this was what was happening in Veg. 8 and I thought that vers. 9 might handle the AVCHD better.

I am now asking myself - "Why did I bother to waste more money with Vegas 9 ?"

RonC.

Graham Bernard · February 21st, 2010, 03:56 AM

It may very well be handling your AVCHD better than 8. But, and I understand your frustration, that with you this isn't the case. However, AVCHD does require more oomph under the bonnet to allow Vegas to cope. This from the latest Q&A Webinar from SONY:

"Playing AVCHD footage and editing it are two very different procedures. Making AVCHD footage available for editing in the same way as you can edit other footage requires more processing that merely playing the file. A powerful processor (preferably multiple cores) and high RAM is highly recommended for working with AVCHD. Using the 64-bit version of Vegas Pro on a 64-bit operating system will help too as well as other preview playback optimization ideas that are discussed in our online knowledge database under the Support section at Sony Creative Software - Vegas video - ACID & Sound Forge audio editing. Enter Achieving smooth playback in the Video Preview window in the Search by Keyword field and click the Search button."

I realsie that this is about Preview, but this should give you some comfort, and at least a glimmer of what can be achieved.

My advice? As you ARE getting the same in VP9 as VP8 there could be a need for considering a hardware/ and/or s/w upgrade. Secondly, try rendering OUT that project to DV and then PTT that.

Grazie

Gerald Webb · February 21st, 2010, 04:47 AM

There is an easy fix,
Render your source files to sony MXF the size of your desired output,
use the replace footage tool in the project media window, so you dont have to re cut the project.
I will bet anything all your problems will go away when all the source footage is the same kind and size.
In future, it is so much better to capture your avchd camcorder as you would HDV, into a sony MXF file, easy preview, easy render.

Mike Calla · February 21st, 2010, 05:19 AM

Every once in a while you are going to get stupid hiccups, with any app.

The fact that it is repeatable and happening on V9 too, is a good sign, as it lets you (more) easily diagnose the problem so you can avoid it later.

If you have time, you can try to find where/what the problem is - print small segments to tape, or mute tracks... or try to eliminate as many variables as you can.

If you don't have time, do as Gerald advises, and transcode to a universal format.

btw AVCHD footage is a known PITA! Transcode AVCHD to mxf, or IMO, if you are doing colour correction or effects, Sony's pre-installed cineform codec (in V8/7/6...) holds colour better.

Ron Cooper · February 21st, 2010, 06:43 PM

I may have not made it clear, but I AM trying to render out to Std. def DV and this is what all the project settings etc are set to, as well I am using the 64 bit versions of the Apps.

The fact that the computer could be better I admit to, - (I am actually waiting for Sata 3 HDD before I build another), but I would have thought that it would simply mean that it would take longer to render and process , not just crash. Further, and somewhat insultingly, it states on page 59 of the Pro 9 manual under "Working with AVCHD" -
1) Shoot your video with a SONY AVCHD camcorder !
(Do they not know there are just a few other companies besides Sony !)

However, in this case it WAS shot on a Sony. But my own camera is a Canon HF-S10, so what future hope do I now have ? ! (Use Edius !)

As the o/p is Std. def. can I still render this project to MXF Gerald ?
Also, can I render this to a file, as I am completely in the dark on this one. I have known for some time that AVCHD is a right royal PITA but as a prosumer using smallish Hi Def cameras there is not much choice. I still use the Sony HVR-A1 as it is not too big but the results from the smaller Canon are much better and it is very easy to use with its easy, manual functions.

RonC.

Gerald Webb · February 21st, 2010, 08:15 PM

Ron,
You can render to MXF in any size you want, just click the custom button in the render panel and set it up. If it was me though, Id edit it all and output to HD MXF then when you have one file, convert to SD, some people on here have different opinions on this, thats just my 2cents.
As for your HF-s10 , it has HDMI out, yeah? My HF 10 does, so I presume it would, get a Blackmagic intensity capture card and you can capture any AVCHD cam via HDMI or HD component, in Vegas, to uncompressed or MXF.
You then have the advantage of using an AVCHD cam, long memory, no changing tapes every hour, but without the headaches of editing AVCHD.
And I have checked the MXF file against the source AVCHD file in Vegas, they are as close to identical as I can tell, the difference being you can preview your MXF in best quality even through your crossfades and with fx.

Graham Bernard · February 22nd, 2010, 01:47 AM

I found this "note" about the power one needs for editing native AVCHD, the use of Vegas and a general wide-view on the state of play of this "format".

All about AVCHD | ShedWorx

Grazie

Ron Cooper · February 22nd, 2010, 01:48 AM

Thanks Gerald, that looks most interesting. Yes the HF-S10 does have an HDMI out. However, in my present project, there were two other cameras used, - one was DV (not Hi-Def), & the other HDV (my Sony A1P), which I downconverted to DV into the PC. So the only HD on the timeline is from the AVCHD cam. Hence the project being output to DV with most of the timeline being AVI.

Will this cause any complication/quality loss, in rendering to MXF and then outputting back to AVI for the final tape.

RonC.

Graham Bernard · February 22nd, 2010, 01:54 AM

Ron? I would really like to hear comments about one's (your) Project Settings and the use of a mixed media on a Vegas timeline? And especially the mix being DV and AVCHD on a lowlier spec-ed machine. Does one set project to media? Which one? What is the needed outcome for render? IS there a fight going on for what the settings are and THEN the FOrmat of your render out template? IS the Video part of your template saying go use the Project settings? - I can imagine that these questions could reveal just how much stress you are putting on the machine.

Interesting thread.

Grazie

Gerald Webb · February 22nd, 2010, 03:06 AM

In that case, being that most of your media is DV,
I would just open a new vegas,
get your source files, ( or if in a hurry, just do the AVCHD )
render them all to 576i (or p, whichever applies ) MXF,
and then use the replace media option in in your edited project. As long as you dont do anything silly with your settings it will be visually lossless
You could spend more time trying to downconvert the AVCHD in a better manner, theres threads on here talking about it in great depth, (personally Ive never had a prob with quality when down converting, IMO I think theres a bit more talent required to upconvert from 576i to 720p and make it look good, but thats just my 2 cents.) But really, why bother, if your working with DV you would have to do something terrible when converting the AVCHD to make it look worse than the other DV tracks.

Ron Cooper · February 22nd, 2010, 05:38 AM

Graham, thanks for your interest. Firstly, I am no pro, just a mere serious amateur trying to get a decent result. I have learnt quite a bit from you guys and would be totally lost without the help that this forum provides.

In this short video I simply used as many cameras as I could get my hands on ! My son had a fairly new Sony AVCHD camcorder and this seems to be the source of my problems as all the others were able to produce a DV output. I had read that Vegas is supposed to handle different formats on the same timeline so I just did it. As far as the settings were concerned I simply set everything to PAL DV widescreen - 720 x 576, interlaced - LFF, 1.4568 Pix. Asp. Ratio, 8-bit, - (don't know about this one but it seemed to be the default), Render quality - Best. Audio - 48k stereo 16bit.

The curious part is that I was not aware of any problems until this final stage. I simply fiddled about with the editing with mainly straight cuts and a few dissolves. I simply prerendered it as I went, played the movie from the timeline, and all seemed to be OK. Even when I selected "Print to Tape" & went through the motions, it all just seemed to work and then went belly up as it was attempting to feed it to the camera. (The firewire control started the camera OK as well).
RonC.

Ron Cooper · February 22nd, 2010, 06:23 AM

Gerald, I opened Vegas Pro 9 & imported a "Saved As" copy project into it and then selected Pre-render with a loop region over the full length, and set it to MXF PAL DV widescreen template. After it rendered I then selected "Print to Tape" and set it to Pal DV widescreen/OHCI Compliant etc.

It proceded through the rendering motions as before but then crashed with the same error message.

Is this too much of a simplification of what you had in mind as it is a very complicated edit with the three cameras.

RonC.

Ron Cooper · February 22nd, 2010, 07:05 AM

Gerald, after posting the last reply, I turned the camera off (again) and repeated the "Print to Tape" procedure (fromMXF pre-render) but with the camera set to manual control. It started to work but with a few glitches - odd frames etc flickering and a few black frames but basically it worked !!

I have now gone back to the edit to see the cause of the glitches and find that some of the edits have "moved" slightly causing frames to show up during the fades. Could this be a function of re-rendering to MXF as the original edit was fine before.

As I have saved this edit in several locations from the original in Vegas 8, tomorrow I will try opening one in Veg 8 & try to pre-render to MXF and repeat it as above but from Vegas 8.

Thanks again for your help.
RonC.

February 21st, 2010, 02:36 AM	#1
Ron Cooper Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 481	Same problem now in Vegas 9 I have just installed the latest version of Vegas pro 9.0C after using vers. 8 & having problems of the same nature as I still have now. The timeline renders & plays perfectly. It is a short, straight-forward, 6 min. video having DV and AVCHD on the timeline with no filters or effects, just cuts & fades but has 3 audio tracks. The AVCHD was shot using a SONY camcorder and I am (very frustratingly), trying to print the finished edit back to DV Tape on a SONY HVR-A1P camcorder. The editing was done on a SONY VIAO VGN-Z46GD 2.8g 2 core duo/6g ram laptop computer running Vista 64bit. I have opened the project now in Vegas 9 and when I try to "Print Video to tape", all appears to be OK with rendering etc. but when the actual tape starts recording, after about 20 seconds with tape running OK but no video appearing, I get the following error messages - "An error occurred while creating the media file. An unexpected error has occurred." It gives no indication as to what the error is, and I have tried re-connecting & turning on & off the camcorder to no avail. I have double checked settings etc and they all seem to be OK. - PAL DV widescreen etc. This is extremely disappointing as this was what was happening in Veg. 8 and I thought that vers. 9 might handle the AVCHD better. I am now asking myself - "Why did I bother to waste more money with Vegas 9 ?" RonC.

February 21st, 2010, 05:19 AM	#4
Mike Calla Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Shanghai Posts: 344	Every once in a while you are going to get stupid hiccups, with any app. The fact that it is repeatable and happening on V9 too, is a good sign, as it lets you (more) easily diagnose the problem so you can avoid it later. If you have time, you can try to find where/what the problem is - print small segments to tape, or mute tracks... or try to eliminate as many variables as you can. If you don't have time, do as Gerald advises, and transcode to a universal format. btw AVCHD footage is a known PITA! Transcode AVCHD to mxf, or IMO, if you are doing colour correction or effects, Sony's pre-installed cineform codec (in V8/7/6...) holds colour better. __________________ boxoutsidemedia.com

February 21st, 2010, 06:43 PM	#5
Ron Cooper Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 481	Thanks for your replies I may have not made it clear, but I AM trying to render out to Std. def DV and this is what all the project settings etc are set to, as well I am using the 64 bit versions of the Apps. The fact that the computer could be better I admit to, - (I am actually waiting for Sata 3 HDD before I build another), but I would have thought that it would simply mean that it would take longer to render and process , not just crash. Further, and somewhat insultingly, it states on page 59 of the Pro 9 manual under "Working with AVCHD" - 1) Shoot your video with a SONY AVCHD camcorder ! (Do they not know there are just a few other companies besides Sony !) However, in this case it WAS shot on a Sony. But my own camera is a Canon HF-S10, so what future hope do I now have ? ! (Use Edius !) As the o/p is Std. def. can I still render this project to MXF Gerald ? Also, can I render this to a file, as I am completely in the dark on this one. I have known for some time that AVCHD is a right royal PITA but as a prosumer using smallish Hi Def cameras there is not much choice. I still use the Sony HVR-A1 as it is not too big but the results from the smaller Canon are much better and it is very easy to use with its easy, manual functions. RonC.

February 21st, 2010, 03:56 AM	#2
Graham Bernard Old Boot Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London UK Posts: 3,633	It may very well be handling your AVCHD better than 8. But, and I understand your frustration, that with you this isn't the case. However, AVCHD does require more oomph under the bonnet to allow Vegas to cope. This from the latest Q&A Webinar from SONY: "Playing AVCHD footage and editing it are two very different procedures. Making AVCHD footage available for editing in the same way as you can edit other footage requires more processing that merely playing the file. A powerful processor (preferably multiple cores) and high RAM is highly recommended for working with AVCHD. Using the 64-bit version of Vegas Pro on a 64-bit operating system will help too as well as other preview playback optimization ideas that are discussed in our online knowledge database under the Support section at Sony Creative Software - Vegas video - ACID & Sound Forge audio editing. Enter Achieving smooth playback in the Video Preview window in the Search by Keyword field and click the Search button." I realsie that this is about Preview, but this should give you some comfort, and at least a glimmer of what can be achieved. My advice? As you ARE getting the same in VP9 as VP8 there could be a need for considering a hardware/ and/or s/w upgrade. Secondly, try rendering OUT that project to DV and then PTT that. Grazie

February 21st, 2010, 04:47 AM	#3
Gerald Webb Trustee Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Central Coast Australia Posts: 1,046	There is an easy fix, Render your source files to sony MXF the size of your desired output, use the replace footage tool in the project media window, so you dont have to re cut the project. I will bet anything all your problems will go away when all the source footage is the same kind and size. In future, it is so much better to capture your avchd camcorder as you would HDV, into a sony MXF file, easy preview, easy render.

February 21st, 2010, 08:15 PM	#6
Gerald Webb Trustee Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Central Coast Australia Posts: 1,046	Ron, You can render to MXF in any size you want, just click the custom button in the render panel and set it up. If it was me though, Id edit it all and output to HD MXF then when you have one file, convert to SD, some people on here have different opinions on this, thats just my 2cents. As for your HF-s10 , it has HDMI out, yeah? My HF 10 does, so I presume it would, get a Blackmagic intensity capture card and you can capture any AVCHD cam via HDMI or HD component, in Vegas, to uncompressed or MXF. You then have the advantage of using an AVCHD cam, long memory, no changing tapes every hour, but without the headaches of editing AVCHD. And I have checked the MXF file against the source AVCHD file in Vegas, they are as close to identical as I can tell, the difference being you can preview your MXF in best quality even through your crossfades and with fx.

February 22nd, 2010, 01:47 AM	#7
Graham Bernard Old Boot Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London UK Posts: 3,633	I found this "note" about the power one needs for editing native AVCHD, the use of Vegas and a general wide-view on the state of play of this "format". All about AVCHD \| ShedWorx Grazie

February 22nd, 2010, 01:48 AM	#8
Ron Cooper Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 481	Thanks Gerald, that looks most interesting. Yes the HF-S10 does have an HDMI out. However, in my present project, there were two other cameras used, - one was DV (not Hi-Def), & the other HDV (my Sony A1P), which I downconverted to DV into the PC. So the only HD on the timeline is from the AVCHD cam. Hence the project being output to DV with most of the timeline being AVI. Will this cause any complication/quality loss, in rendering to MXF and then outputting back to AVI for the final tape. RonC.

February 22nd, 2010, 01:54 AM	#9
Graham Bernard Old Boot Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London UK Posts: 3,633	Ron? I would really like to hear comments about one's (your) Project Settings and the use of a mixed media on a Vegas timeline? And especially the mix being DV and AVCHD on a lowlier spec-ed machine. Does one set project to media? Which one? What is the needed outcome for render? IS there a fight going on for what the settings are and THEN the FOrmat of your render out template? IS the Video part of your template saying go use the Project settings? - I can imagine that these questions could reveal just how much stress you are putting on the machine. Interesting thread. Grazie

February 22nd, 2010, 03:06 AM	#10
Gerald Webb Trustee Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Central Coast Australia Posts: 1,046	In that case, being that most of your media is DV, I would just open a new vegas, get your source files, ( or if in a hurry, just do the AVCHD ) render them all to 576i (or p, whichever applies ) MXF, and then use the replace media option in in your edited project. As long as you dont do anything silly with your settings it will be visually lossless You could spend more time trying to downconvert the AVCHD in a better manner, theres threads on here talking about it in great depth, (personally Ive never had a prob with quality when down converting, IMO I think theres a bit more talent required to upconvert from 576i to 720p and make it look good, but thats just my 2 cents.) But really, why bother, if your working with DV you would have to do something terrible when converting the AVCHD to make it look worse than the other DV tracks.

February 22nd, 2010, 05:38 AM	#11
Ron Cooper Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 481	Graham, thanks for your interest. Firstly, I am no pro, just a mere serious amateur trying to get a decent result. I have learnt quite a bit from you guys and would be totally lost without the help that this forum provides. In this short video I simply used as many cameras as I could get my hands on ! My son had a fairly new Sony AVCHD camcorder and this seems to be the source of my problems as all the others were able to produce a DV output. I had read that Vegas is supposed to handle different formats on the same timeline so I just did it. As far as the settings were concerned I simply set everything to PAL DV widescreen - 720 x 576, interlaced - LFF, 1.4568 Pix. Asp. Ratio, 8-bit, - (don't know about this one but it seemed to be the default), Render quality - Best. Audio - 48k stereo 16bit. The curious part is that I was not aware of any problems until this final stage. I simply fiddled about with the editing with mainly straight cuts and a few dissolves. I simply prerendered it as I went, played the movie from the timeline, and all seemed to be OK. Even when I selected "Print to Tape" & went through the motions, it all just seemed to work and then went belly up as it was attempting to feed it to the camera. (The firewire control started the camera OK as well). RonC.

February 22nd, 2010, 06:23 AM	#12
Ron Cooper Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 481	Gerald, I opened Vegas Pro 9 & imported a "Saved As" copy project into it and then selected Pre-render with a loop region over the full length, and set it to MXF PAL DV widescreen template. After it rendered I then selected "Print to Tape" and set it to Pal DV widescreen/OHCI Compliant etc. It proceded through the rendering motions as before but then crashed with the same error message. Is this too much of a simplification of what you had in mind as it is a very complicated edit with the three cameras. RonC.

February 22nd, 2010, 07:05 AM	#13
Ron Cooper Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 481	Gerald, after posting the last reply, I turned the camera off (again) and repeated the "Print to Tape" procedure (fromMXF pre-render) but with the camera set to manual control. It started to work but with a few glitches - odd frames etc flickering and a few black frames but basically it worked !! I have now gone back to the edit to see the cause of the glitches and find that some of the edits have "moved" slightly causing frames to show up during the fades. Could this be a function of re-rendering to MXF as the original edit was fine before. As I have saved this edit in several locations from the original in Vegas 8, tomorrow I will try opening one in Veg 8 & try to pre-render to MXF and repeat it as above but from Vegas 8. Thanks again for your help. RonC.