I need help rendering 12FPS JPEG sequences to PAL DV at DVinfo.net

Adi Head · February 9th, 2010, 06:27 AM

Hi. A friend of mine made an animation film - drawn and animated on Adobe Flash - then exported each shot from Flash as jpeg sequences - then edited on Sony Vegas Pro.

When rendering the project in Vegas to .avi video format (using PAL DV settings) - we've been running into poor results which I can't quite explain - the image quality is not very good, seems pixelated and especially noticeable in movement.

I then tried rendering to .avi file and changed the Video Format in the Custom Settings to "Uncompressed". This time image quality was fine.

I suspect this has to do with the fact that we're dealing with jpeg sequences and not DV material.

Also, there is the fact that when creating the animation - Flash was set to 12 fps, therefore the jpeg sequences are 12 fps. I suspect this might be something I need to deal with when rendering the project in Vegas, but I'm not sure how.

Eventually we will be printing the project to PAL miniDV tape to send to an animation film festival, but I'm afraid to do that before I fully understand what is causing the poor results when rendering to .avi with video set to PAL DV and how to overcome it.

I'd really appreciate it if someone could coach me through this. THANKs!

When making our test renders to PAL DV avi file the settings were as follows:

PROPERTIES OF MEDIA IN TIMELINE:

Picasa Web Albums - adihead

PROPERTIES OF VEGAS PROJECT:

Picasa Web Albums - adihead

SETTINGS FOR RENDERING TO PAL DV AVI FILE:

Picasa Web Albums - adihead

Edward Troxel · February 9th, 2010, 08:02 AM

You might try turning off "Resample". That's on the Video Event tab of the "properties of media in timeline" - your images didn't show us that tab.

Adi Head · February 9th, 2010, 11:01 AM

Hi Ed. I tried ticking Disable resample. It still looks bad when compared to uncompressed render. The lines are a bit jagged, like they are pixelated.
I might add that I tried rendering to .mov - using the following settings:

Picasa Web Albums - adihead

And the outcomes were nice. No jagged edged lines, image was smooth and crisp.

But it doesn't help me in getting the film on miniDV tape, right? I suppose that when printing to tape - it's gonna look like the PAL DV render.

Another problem has to do with pixel aspect ratio. apparently the jpeg sequences that were exported from Flash were formed with square pixels. So now when importing them into a PAL project with 1.093 aspect ratio - so the image is somewhat stretched horizontally. Is there a way to solve this?

Thanks.

Adi Head · February 9th, 2010, 01:17 PM

UPDATE...

It turns out the last render I made while disabling resample - IS GOOD!

I don't know how to explain it, but when viewing the .avi file with Windows media player or GOM media player it looked much worse than when viewing the very same file with VLC media player. Maybe something that has to do with the settings... I don't know. Anyhow, when viewing the .avi file with VLC media player the image is crisp and nice - just like the quicktime file I mentioned earlier.

So that problem is solved.

Only problem left unsolved is the aspect ratio issue.

Is there a solution to that?

Or will we need to be satisfied with either stretching the image a bit or leaving the black margins on the sides of the frame....

Looking forward to your replies. thx!

Seth Bloombaum · February 9th, 2010, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adi Head

...Only problem left unsolved is the aspect ratio issue.

Is there a solution to that?

Or will we need to be satisfied with either stretching the image a bit or leaving the black margins on the sides of the frame....

Those are two basic approaches.

Of course the margins don't have to be black. They can be filled with any color or image on a lower track, including something the animator might give you that looks like the existing anim background.

Otherwise, you can zoom in a little with pan/crop to fill, if the animation looks good that way, preserving aspect ratio but losing a little bit of anim background.

Or, you can zoom out a little, and place the anim clip over a background, maybe with a drop shadow... a frame... an entrance transition... etc.

Adi Head · February 9th, 2010, 02:55 PM

Seth,
So I understand from what you're saying that there's no way for me to convert the pixel aspect ratio somehow so that it would fit full frame to PAL 720x576. Is that right?

Whether or not Flash can export jpeg sequences in PAL DV pixel aspect ratio rather than square is a question for a Flash forum I guess, but maybe someone has experience with these things here? I'm curious to know if someone knows of a workaround for using frames made with software that exports square pixel media.

thx

Seth Bloombaum · February 9th, 2010, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adi Head

Seth,
So I understand from what you're saying that there's no way for me to convert the pixel aspect ratio somehow so that it would fit full frame to PAL 720x576. Is that right?...

That conversion is possible, but produces a squeeze or stretch, as you've found.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adi Head

...I'm curious to know if someone knows of a workaround for using frames made with software that exports square pixel media.

Ah, that's the most elegant, if you have the Flash author available to resize and re-export. Sorry, I'm not as familiar with PAL as I am with NTSC, need to do some math here.

The square-pixel equivalent of PAL720x576 1.093PAR is... um... you're seeing some black left and right, or, it's stretched horizontally, correct? Then it should come out of flash in square pixels at
***edit***
787x576.

See the tip from Edward in the next post of this thread!

Edward Troxel · February 10th, 2010, 09:10 AM

If the project properties are the way you want, just take a snapshot in Vegas and it the resulting image will give you the par 1.0 dimensions.

Seth Bloombaum · February 10th, 2010, 10:51 AM

Great tip, Edward!

Doggone, it, I did screw up the math. Again!

Will edit the misleading post, above. Using Edward's suggested method, the sqare pixel equivalent for SD PAL is 787x576.

Adi Head · February 17th, 2010, 08:12 AM

thanks for the replies!

two things:

1. regarding the chunky image quality that we were trying to overcome... it's strange. it turns out it was not a matter of fiddling around with the settings in Vegas but rather it had to do with the media players we were viewing the .avi file on. For some reason when viewing the file with Windows Media Player the image would be very pixelated, when viewing with GOM Media Player it would be better, but still not quite there; and when viewing with VLC Media Player - it would look perfect! By the way, when rendering to .mov file and viewing with QT player - it would look great as well.
I have no idea what would be the reason for this. As I use these different players often and have never noticed any quality difference between them. Maybe it has something to do with codecs?... I really don't know. I'm curious to know if maybe you guys have an idea what the reason for this could be.

2. concerning the square pixel aspect ratio vs. Pal DV aspect ratio - thanks guys. I tried to read through your suggestions and figure it out, but I'm having a hard time understanding the logic behind it. I'll have to test out those methods you suggest and figure it out hands-on. When I'm actually doing it (rather than just reading about it) I tend to have an easier time getting things.... thanks!

Meanwhile.... another question regarding the same film has come up - I need to make an NTSC copy of it and I'm not sure how. Since it seemed like a different topic, I posted the question in a new thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/what-hap...nt-minidv.html

THANKS

February 9th, 2010, 06:27 AM	#1
Adi Head Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 642	I need help rendering 12FPS JPEG sequences to PAL DV Hi. A friend of mine made an animation film - drawn and animated on Adobe Flash - then exported each shot from Flash as jpeg sequences - then edited on Sony Vegas Pro. When rendering the project in Vegas to .avi video format (using PAL DV settings) - we've been running into poor results which I can't quite explain - the image quality is not very good, seems pixelated and especially noticeable in movement. I then tried rendering to .avi file and changed the Video Format in the Custom Settings to "Uncompressed". This time image quality was fine. I suspect this has to do with the fact that we're dealing with jpeg sequences and not DV material. Also, there is the fact that when creating the animation - Flash was set to 12 fps, therefore the jpeg sequences are 12 fps. I suspect this might be something I need to deal with when rendering the project in Vegas, but I'm not sure how. Eventually we will be printing the project to PAL miniDV tape to send to an animation film festival, but I'm afraid to do that before I fully understand what is causing the poor results when rendering to .avi with video set to PAL DV and how to overcome it. I'd really appreciate it if someone could coach me through this. THANKs! When making our test renders to PAL DV avi file the settings were as follows: PROPERTIES OF MEDIA IN TIMELINE: Picasa Web Albums - adihead PROPERTIES OF VEGAS PROJECT: Picasa Web Albums - adihead SETTINGS FOR RENDERING TO PAL DV AVI FILE: Picasa Web Albums - adihead

February 9th, 2010, 08:02 AM	#2
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	You might try turning off "Resample". That's on the Video Event tab of the "properties of media in timeline" - your images didn't show us that tab. __________________ Edward Troxel [SCVU] JETDV Scripts/Scripting Tutorials/Excalibur/Montage Magic/Newsletters

February 10th, 2010, 09:10 AM	#8
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	If the project properties are the way you want, just take a snapshot in Vegas and it the resulting image will give you the par 1.0 dimensions. __________________ Edward Troxel [SCVU] JETDV Scripts/Scripting Tutorials/Excalibur/Montage Magic/Newsletters

February 10th, 2010, 10:51 AM	#9
Seth Bloombaum Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,420	Great tip, Edward! Doggone, it, I did screw up the math. Again! Will edit the misleading post, above. Using Edward's suggested method, the sqare pixel equivalent for SD PAL is 787x576. __________________ 30 years of pro media production. Vegas user since 1.0. Webcaster since 1997. Freelancer since 2000. College instructor since 2001.

February 9th, 2010, 11:01 AM	#3
Adi Head Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 642	Hi Ed. I tried ticking Disable resample. It still looks bad when compared to uncompressed render. The lines are a bit jagged, like they are pixelated. I might add that I tried rendering to .mov - using the following settings: Picasa Web Albums - adihead And the outcomes were nice. No jagged edged lines, image was smooth and crisp. But it doesn't help me in getting the film on miniDV tape, right? I suppose that when printing to tape - it's gonna look like the PAL DV render. Another problem has to do with pixel aspect ratio. apparently the jpeg sequences that were exported from Flash were formed with square pixels. So now when importing them into a PAL project with 1.093 aspect ratio - so the image is somewhat stretched horizontally. Is there a way to solve this? Thanks.

February 9th, 2010, 01:17 PM	#4
Adi Head Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 642	UPDATE... It turns out the last render I made while disabling resample - IS GOOD! I don't know how to explain it, but when viewing the .avi file with Windows media player or GOM media player it looked much worse than when viewing the very same file with VLC media player. Maybe something that has to do with the settings... I don't know. Anyhow, when viewing the .avi file with VLC media player the image is crisp and nice - just like the quicktime file I mentioned earlier. So that problem is solved. Only problem left unsolved is the aspect ratio issue. Is there a solution to that? Or will we need to be satisfied with either stretching the image a bit or leaving the black margins on the sides of the frame.... Looking forward to your replies. thx!

February 9th, 2010, 02:55 PM	#6
Adi Head Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 642	Seth, So I understand from what you're saying that there's no way for me to convert the pixel aspect ratio somehow so that it would fit full frame to PAL 720x576. Is that right? Whether or not Flash can export jpeg sequences in PAL DV pixel aspect ratio rather than square is a question for a Flash forum I guess, but maybe someone has experience with these things here? I'm curious to know if someone knows of a workaround for using frames made with software that exports square pixel media. thx

February 17th, 2010, 08:12 AM	#10
Adi Head Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 642	thanks for the replies! two things: 1. regarding the chunky image quality that we were trying to overcome... it's strange. it turns out it was not a matter of fiddling around with the settings in Vegas but rather it had to do with the media players we were viewing the .avi file on. For some reason when viewing the file with Windows Media Player the image would be very pixelated, when viewing with GOM Media Player it would be better, but still not quite there; and when viewing with VLC Media Player - it would look perfect! By the way, when rendering to .mov file and viewing with QT player - it would look great as well. I have no idea what would be the reason for this. As I use these different players often and have never noticed any quality difference between them. Maybe it has something to do with codecs?... I really don't know. I'm curious to know if maybe you guys have an idea what the reason for this could be. 2. concerning the square pixel aspect ratio vs. Pal DV aspect ratio - thanks guys. I tried to read through your suggestions and figure it out, but I'm having a hard time understanding the logic behind it. I'll have to test out those methods you suggest and figure it out hands-on. When I'm actually doing it (rather than just reading about it) I tend to have an easier time getting things.... thanks! Meanwhile.... another question regarding the same film has come up - I need to make an NTSC copy of it and I'm not sure how. Since it seemed like a different topic, I posted the question in a new thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/what-hap...nt-minidv.html THANKS