What bit rates for Blu-Ray, DVD Architect at DVinfo.net

Simon Denny · February 3rd, 2010, 01:34 AM

I guys,
I'm having one last go at getting a Blu Ray out of DVD Architect 5.
I have had no luck so far as DVDArc stops half way and produces various errors and right now I don't have this info on me.
When I building the DVD and prep for the build DVDArc says that my bit-rate is to high and needs to get under 28mbps. Now this is weird as I thought Blu Ray had a peak of 40meg and could go an average of 34meg.
My previous renders have been 34mbps avg and peak @ 38mbps

Can anyone help me with this matter and offer me some advice.

Cheers

Perrone Ford · February 3rd, 2010, 02:19 AM

Simon,

This is why I mentioned last night... if you are going to do AVC BluRay in DVDA, make the bit rate no higher than 16Mbps. If you are making an Mpeg2 Bluray, then keep the rate at or under 25Mbps.

You can take my advice and make it work.. or you can keep getting errors. I've been and done that. Doing it again tomorrow with a DNxHD .MOV file coming out of FCP.

Simon Denny · February 3rd, 2010, 02:47 AM

Hi Perrone,

Thanks for the info. Is this 25Mbps avg? What should my peak be.

Thanks

Rob Wood · February 3rd, 2010, 07:46 PM

"Thanks for the info. Is this 25Mbps avg? What should my peak be."

there is no option for defining peak in DVD-A (least i haven't seen it).

the workflow Perrone is describing is not the same one normally used for authoring DVD's using Vegas/DVD-A, ie: render a great mpeg-2 from Vegas which quickly transcodes in DVD-A).

the workflow is more like:
1) render a high-quality master from Vegas
2) load up a Blu-Ray preset in DVD-A
3) have DVD-A do the rendering from master to mpeg-2

i'm using AVC rather than MPEG-2... haven't tried VC-1 yet (gotta figure out what software to author with).

anyway, been testing AVC bit-rates of 16Mbps and 18Mpbs in DVD-A: tried 25Mbps and after 15-20 minutes the bluray player began having difficulties with playback (strobing, pulldown-like quality to motion)

note: i'm working with 1280x720@23.976 (your mileage may vary)

good luck

Perrone Ford · February 3rd, 2010, 08:50 PM

It's truly a sad state of affairs. After more than a dozen attempts of trying to get something workable out of Vegas to go into DVDA without a re-encode, I gave up. I just rendered my master from Vegas for archiving, and then dropped that master into DVDA and let it do the encode. That took I don't know HOW many false starts trying to find a bit rate that actually worked.

This is the total opposite from how I do SD DVDs... but I don't have time to waste when I am trying to deliver product. I've got to push one out the door tomorrow, and it's rendering at the office right now. Every one of these I have done has played perfectly.

As soon as I can move to a better BluRay authoring tool, I am GONE...

Simon Denny · February 4th, 2010, 12:45 AM

Hey Guys,
I'm on Mac and using VMware Fusion to run Windows on my Mac.
Now Perrone are you saying that you render out an AVI from Vegas and them import this into DVD-A and let DVD-A render this out to it's respective files.

I used to be a Vegas user with DVD-A for years and I'm now FCP, Mac of course.
So with Blur-Ray in DVD-A you don't bring in pre rendered files, is this correct?

Cheers

Perrone Ford · February 4th, 2010, 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simon Ash

Hey Guys,
I'm on Mac and using VMware Fusion to run Windows on my Mac.
Now Perrone are you saying that you render out an AVI from Vegas and them import this into DVD-A and let DVD-A render this out to it's respective files.

I used to be a Vegas user with DVD-A for years and I'm now FCP, Mac of course.
So with Blur-Ray in DVD-A you don't bring in pre rendered files, is this correct?

Cheers

Essentially, yes this is correct. Except my masters are usually not AVI files. But everything else you said is correct.

Gregory Barringer · February 4th, 2010, 11:42 AM

I'm attempting the same thing as Simon Ash. I used to edit in Vegas and have switched to Mac. I still own Vegas 8 with DVDA 5.0b. I have an 8 core Mac Pro with FCP 7. I'm running Windows 7 using Bootcamp to run DVDA. I'm attempting to burn a BD-RE using a Panasonic BDR-205 burner inside the Mac.

Can anyone give specific settings for FCP or Compressor to use in DVDA? Using Compressor, I've tried MPEG-2 and as long as the file has the .mpg extension, DVDA will accept it. The result was not very good at default levels. I'm trying a higher resolution in Compressor but the render is taking 26 hours for a 30 min. movie. I'll report back on those results.

I've tried Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) on an .avi clip and it burned beautifully in DVDA. For some reason DVDA does not accept the ProRes when I export the entire movie. This is all being done in Compressore using the same settings.

Any help or suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Perrone Ford · February 4th, 2010, 11:53 AM

Why are you doing ProRes in an AVI? Install quicktime in your bootcamped Win7, export a ProRes file from FCP put that into DVDA, and render out. Works fine (other than the gamma shift). I am currently working with a project where the FCP editor is exporting Avid DNxHD files from FCP and handing them off to me to burn on DVDA. Working beautifully. Just handed a new Blu Ray off an noon today.

Gregory Barringer · February 4th, 2010, 01:00 PM

Perrone, thanks for responding. What's better for .avi? Just leave it alone and import into FCP or some other render before importing?

Tom Roper · February 4th, 2010, 08:15 PM

Perrone,
I don't understand why it is so problematic in your case, but I input an MXF file to DVDA, and it renders out to 35mbps AVC Blu-ray iso that plays just fine on the several Blu-ray players I have. I'm living in the past with version 8.0(c), but I don't ever have a problem with either the bit rate or finishing the render. I suspect it's just happy getting MXF for source files.

That said, there's no reason to toil away on something creating so much grief. I know Deank's free authoring app (Doom9 forums) uses TSMuxer to author nice menus, and it's majorly more forgiving since it doesn't insist on fully compliant spec to author flexible output. The name of it escapes me now, but I'll post it later. This is from my Blackberry.

Tom Roper · February 4th, 2010, 08:25 PM

I've said this before, but I find the AVC output from DVDA to be exceptional in quality, you just don't get much control with so few parameters beyond bit rate, and it's slow. But being mired at 16mbps is not necessary. The AVC encoder that sucks is the one in Vegas, not DVDA. And for sure, that sorry piece of junk does confine you to 16mbps. Perhaps what's going on is that you are still trying to get DVDA to smart render a source file that came from Vegas? If so, you are indeed trapped to either the Vegas 16mbps AVC or 25mbps mpeg-2 at the default template settings.

Perrone Ford · February 4th, 2010, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregory Barringer

Perrone, thanks for responding. What's better for .avi? Just leave it alone and import into FCP or some other render before importing?

I have no idea what you just asked me.

Perrone Ford · February 4th, 2010, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregory Barringer

Perrone, thanks for responding. What's better for .avi? Just leave it alone and import into FCP or some other render before importing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Roper

I've said this before, but I find the AVC output from DVDA to be exceptional in quality, you just don't get much control with so few parameters beyond bit rate, and it's slow. But being mired at 16mbps is not necessary. The AVC encoder that sucks is the one in Vegas, not DVDA. And for sure, that sorry piece of junk does confine you to 16mbps. Perhaps what's going on is that you are still trying to get DVDA to smart render a source file that came from Vegas? If so, you are indeed trapped to either the Vegas 16mbps AVC or 25mbps mpeg-2 at the default template settings.

I am not smart rendering anything. But I am also not putting any MXF files on the DVDA timeline. Maybe if I get bored one day I'll fool with another workflow. Nice to know that someone is having success.

Gregory Barringer · February 4th, 2010, 10:45 PM

I was able to burn the Blu-ray disk and it looks great. I started with a new sequence and used the ProRes 422 (HQ) files that I converted eariler from camera .AVI I set the A/V settings to match the ProRes. An experimental ten minute video took one minute to export using QT. DVDA took eight minutes to render and burn the BD. I'm having a beer, maybe two/eight to celebrate.

February 3rd, 2010, 01:34 AM	#1
Simon Denny Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,409	What bit rates for Blu-Ray, DVD Architect I guys, I'm having one last go at getting a Blu Ray out of DVD Architect 5. I have had no luck so far as DVDArc stops half way and produces various errors and right now I don't have this info on me. When I building the DVD and prep for the build DVDArc says that my bit-rate is to high and needs to get under 28mbps. Now this is weird as I thought Blu Ray had a peak of 40meg and could go an average of 34meg. My previous renders have been 34mbps avg and peak @ 38mbps Can anyone help me with this matter and offer me some advice. Cheers

February 3rd, 2010, 02:19 AM	#2
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 4,100	Simon, This is why I mentioned last night... if you are going to do AVC BluRay in DVDA, make the bit rate no higher than 16Mbps. If you are making an Mpeg2 Bluray, then keep the rate at or under 25Mbps. You can take my advice and make it work.. or you can keep getting errors. I've been and done that. Doing it again tomorrow with a DNxHD .MOV file coming out of FCP. __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.

February 3rd, 2010, 08:50 PM	#5
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 4,100	It's truly a sad state of affairs. After more than a dozen attempts of trying to get something workable out of Vegas to go into DVDA without a re-encode, I gave up. I just rendered my master from Vegas for archiving, and then dropped that master into DVDA and let it do the encode. That took I don't know HOW many false starts trying to find a bit rate that actually worked. This is the total opposite from how I do SD DVDs... but I don't have time to waste when I am trying to deliver product. I've got to push one out the door tomorrow, and it's rendering at the office right now. Every one of these I have done has played perfectly. As soon as I can move to a better BluRay authoring tool, I am GONE... __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.

February 4th, 2010, 11:53 AM	#9
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 4,100	Why are you doing ProRes in an AVI? Install quicktime in your bootcamped Win7, export a ProRes file from FCP put that into DVDA, and render out. Works fine (other than the gamma shift). I am currently working with a project where the FCP editor is exporting Avid DNxHD files from FCP and handing them off to me to burn on DVDA. Working beautifully. Just handed a new Blu Ray off an noon today. __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.

February 3rd, 2010, 02:47 AM	#3
Simon Denny Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,409	Hi Perrone, Thanks for the info. Is this 25Mbps avg? What should my peak be. Thanks

February 3rd, 2010, 07:46 PM	#4
Rob Wood Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 146	"Thanks for the info. Is this 25Mbps avg? What should my peak be." there is no option for defining peak in DVD-A (least i haven't seen it). the workflow Perrone is describing is not the same one normally used for authoring DVD's using Vegas/DVD-A, ie: render a great mpeg-2 from Vegas which quickly transcodes in DVD-A). the workflow is more like: 1) render a high-quality master from Vegas 2) load up a Blu-Ray preset in DVD-A 3) have DVD-A do the rendering from master to mpeg-2 i'm using AVC rather than MPEG-2... haven't tried VC-1 yet (gotta figure out what software to author with). anyway, been testing AVC bit-rates of 16Mbps and 18Mpbs in DVD-A: tried 25Mbps and after 15-20 minutes the bluray player began having difficulties with playback (strobing, pulldown-like quality to motion) note: i'm working with 1280x720@23.976 (your mileage may vary) good luck

February 4th, 2010, 12:45 AM	#6
Simon Denny Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,409	Hey Guys, I'm on Mac and using VMware Fusion to run Windows on my Mac. Now Perrone are you saying that you render out an AVI from Vegas and them import this into DVD-A and let DVD-A render this out to it's respective files. I used to be a Vegas user with DVD-A for years and I'm now FCP, Mac of course. So with Blur-Ray in DVD-A you don't bring in pre rendered files, is this correct? Cheers

February 4th, 2010, 11:42 AM	#8
Gregory Barringer Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Pittsburgh, PA. Posts: 57	I'm attempting the same thing as Simon Ash. I used to edit in Vegas and have switched to Mac. I still own Vegas 8 with DVDA 5.0b. I have an 8 core Mac Pro with FCP 7. I'm running Windows 7 using Bootcamp to run DVDA. I'm attempting to burn a BD-RE using a Panasonic BDR-205 burner inside the Mac. Can anyone give specific settings for FCP or Compressor to use in DVDA? Using Compressor, I've tried MPEG-2 and as long as the file has the .mpg extension, DVDA will accept it. The result was not very good at default levels. I'm trying a higher resolution in Compressor but the render is taking 26 hours for a 30 min. movie. I'll report back on those results. I've tried Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) on an .avi clip and it burned beautifully in DVDA. For some reason DVDA does not accept the ProRes when I export the entire movie. This is all being done in Compressore using the same settings. Any help or suggestions are greatly appreciated.

February 4th, 2010, 01:00 PM	#10
Gregory Barringer Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Pittsburgh, PA. Posts: 57	Perrone, thanks for responding. What's better for .avi? Just leave it alone and import into FCP or some other render before importing?

February 4th, 2010, 08:15 PM	#11
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	Perrone, I don't understand why it is so problematic in your case, but I input an MXF file to DVDA, and it renders out to 35mbps AVC Blu-ray iso that plays just fine on the several Blu-ray players I have. I'm living in the past with version 8.0(c), but I don't ever have a problem with either the bit rate or finishing the render. I suspect it's just happy getting MXF for source files. That said, there's no reason to toil away on something creating so much grief. I know Deank's free authoring app (Doom9 forums) uses TSMuxer to author nice menus, and it's majorly more forgiving since it doesn't insist on fully compliant spec to author flexible output. The name of it escapes me now, but I'll post it later. This is from my Blackberry.

February 4th, 2010, 08:25 PM	#12
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	I've said this before, but I find the AVC output from DVDA to be exceptional in quality, you just don't get much control with so few parameters beyond bit rate, and it's slow. But being mired at 16mbps is not necessary. The AVC encoder that sucks is the one in Vegas, not DVDA. And for sure, that sorry piece of junk does confine you to 16mbps. Perhaps what's going on is that you are still trying to get DVDA to smart render a source file that came from Vegas? If so, you are indeed trapped to either the Vegas 16mbps AVC or 25mbps mpeg-2 at the default template settings.

February 4th, 2010, 10:45 PM	#15
Gregory Barringer Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Pittsburgh, PA. Posts: 57	I was able to burn the Blu-ray disk and it looks great. I started with a new sequence and used the ProRes 422 (HQ) files that I converted eariler from camera .AVI I set the A/V settings to match the ProRes. An experimental ten minute video took one minute to export using QT. DVDA took eight minutes to render and burn the BD. I'm having a beer, maybe two/eight to celebrate.