Blu-ray bit rate = biting nails at DVinfo.net

Sunny Dhinsey · November 29th, 2009, 08:38 AM

I've encoded a 3hr 38min project using the following settings:

MPEG2 .m2t
1440 x 1080
384kbit audio
Max bit rate 30mbps
Average bit rate 25mbps
Minimum bit rate 15mbps

Now, when I import the file (approx 44GB in size) into DVD Arch Pro 5, the application wants to recompress the file as it's stating that the .m2t is not a compliant file??

I've noticed, that from the DVD Arch project settings, I have to specify a project bit rate. Is this what's causing the application to recompress? Is there anyway I can just allow the project to use the bit rates the m2t is encoded at (like I do when making DVDs?)

Do I need to re-encode the original m2t at a constant bit rate and then select that in the DVD Arch project settings?

Will recompressing the m2t in DVD Arch consume even more of my life?

Help!!!

Thanks in advance

Perrone Ford · November 29th, 2009, 09:27 AM

Being perfectly honest, I think the Vegas -> DVDA process is garbage at this point. So what I do is to output a high quality (usually lossless) master from Vegas. I'd need one anyway for archiving. And then let DVDA do it's thing with that file. This is the opposite of how I work with DVDs, but I've been pleased with my BluRay's done using this method.

-P

Sunny Dhinsey · November 29th, 2009, 10:54 AM

Hi Perrone, thanks for your response,

What bit rate settings do you use for your lossless HQ render?

I'm assuming rendering a 3hr 38min .m2t would take an age to produce such a file?

My blu-ray project is actually made up of two Files

1) 2hrs 18 mins .m2t at the previously mentioned bitrate average
2) 1hr 20mins at 18mbps CBR

Am lost as to what would be the optimal settings in DVD Arch 5 in terms of bitrate :oS

Don't really want to have to render the whole thing again as it's taken the best part of this weekend to render it initially

Perrone Ford · November 29th, 2009, 11:51 AM

Really, it only appears you have two options.

1. Let DVDA recompress.
2. Create a lossless export

When you select a lossless export from Vegas, you don't get to specify a bitrate. It just uses whatever it needs to ensure no loss. I typically make Lagarith .AVI files from Vegas for this purpose, though there are other options.

Sorry about your troubles. And this is one reason that I spend SO much time getting raw footage from as many cameras as I can to test workflows. So that when a large project comes in, I already understand how to get my results.

Tom Roper · November 30th, 2009, 01:13 AM

Perrone is right, although I don't think the Vegas to DVDA process is as much garbage as it is restrictive. If you use the Vegas Blu-ray template, DVDA will accept without further recompression. If you change the template settings, DVDA will recompress. It's simple as that, your choice.

Personally, the DVDA AVC encoder yields outstanding VBR quality, but it's slow. In your case, since your started with non-compliant mpeg files, I think the DVDA AVC encoder is your best bet for quality, and you won't notice a quality loss. You can choose any bit rate with DVDA AVC encoder up to 40 mbps, but for compliance with the BD-R/RE physical media a practical limit of 25 mbps average bit rate should be observed. Since it's VBR, the bit rate could still peak at 35-40 mbps.

What I would not do, is allow DVDA to recompress your existing mpeg into another, further degraded mpeg.

Perrone Ford · November 30th, 2009, 01:28 AM

Tom, I wish it were that simple. As an example, I had a screening a week ago. I was tasked with preparing a BluRay of a 15 minute short. Source files came to me in ProRes and DNxHD. I placed the DNxHD file on the timeline, and chose to do a 1080/60i BluRay. I chose the defaults, and rendered. When I opened the file in DVDA, it wanted to recompress. I repeated the process but chose the Mpeg2 file as I seen that behavior before with AVC encoded files. The Mpeg2 did not want to import either. In the end, I laid the DNxHD file into the timeline in DVDA and let it do it's deal. No problems there, but as you say, it was slow.

I was very unhappy with that result and really need to try some more workflow tests before my screening this coming Friday. I may update this thread with my findings.

Ron Evans · November 30th, 2009, 07:56 AM

I always get Vegas to encode to the DVDA Bluray preset (since I use the markers set in Vegas as chapter points)but modify to meet my needs. Never had a problem. For almost 4 hours using MPEG2 the average bit rate to fit on a 25G Bluray is going to be very low, say 14. If you are putting on a 50G disc it should go with the default 25 settings though that may still be close and average of 22 may be more appropriate. You will have to do two renders from Vegas. One for video and one for audio and make sure that DVDA preferences are set up for both correctly. IF you have AC3 as audio and bring in PCM DVDA will render audio etc. Your other option is to use AVC render which will take a lot longer.

Ron Evans

Phivo Christodoulou · November 30th, 2009, 08:01 AM

Hi Sunny,

I am not a Vegas user but here are some possible reasons for your troubles.

The more I think about it, the reason it is telling you that the m2t file is a non-compliant file is because a Blu-ray file for authoring should either be .h264 or MPG. It's like importing an AVI and expecting it to burn straight to DVD. You need to turn the AVI into an MPG first.

Perhaps the problem I used to encounter from Grass Valley Edius to Adobe Encore is the same. Encore would always want to re-encode the HD MPG files. To eliminate this you must ensure that you select "MP@HL" in the encoding options.

You say that the file is 44GB in size. Unless you are burning dual layer blu-ray, this is another reason why it wants to re-encode - it won't fit on a 25GB single layer Blu-ray disc.

Encoding blu-ray compliant HD MPG files in Edius takes me approximately 20 minutes for one hour of content (40MBPS highest quality). How long would something like that take on Vegas? I am curious as all programs have their pros and cons.

Lastly, you said that you encoded the audio at 384kbps. That's great if the quality you began with is that high, but if for example you are encoding things such as music downloaded from iTunes which is at 256kbps you will not see any extra benefit. It's like making a blu-ray disc using SD footage - you may as well burn an SD DVD instead because the quality will be the same.

I hope that this is helpful to you. Best of luck with it.

Tom Roper · November 30th, 2009, 06:42 PM

For PC users, and if you don't need menus but just want a quick proof of concept, you can skip DVDA and use TSMuxer, which will author Blu-ray BDMV or AVCHD, and it will accept most any source files, no recompression. Or multiAVCHD will do the same with menus, using TSMuxer as a plugin.

TSMuxer is an indespensible utility for saving time. DVDA is good for a finished product, where as Perrone put it, when you have time to let it do its thing.

I use TSMuxer 90% of the time, and use DVDA when a polished presentation is called for. The AVC encoding from the source video is really very good, just slow. DVDA also accepts 100 mbps 4:2:2 from the Nanoflash.

TSMuxer will accept that as well, as I said there isn't much it won't accept, but if there isn't compliancy with Blu-ray it won't play so the restrictive pickiness of DVDA has some merit.

If DVDA was the only tool in the bag for authoring Blu-ray, I would have to agree it would be a very frustrating, slow process.

You really, really need to give TSMuxer a try. It's free, an indespensible utility when saving time.

Tom Roper · November 30th, 2009, 07:11 PM

Here's an XDCAM quality workflow that can't be beat:

1.) Use Vegas to smart render (no recompression) a HQ 35 mbps mxf file, to mxf using the Sony mxf encoder.
2.) Strip away the mxf container, leaving you with just the 35 mbps long gop mpeg-2 video file .m2v.
3.) Separately render the audio using the Sony AC3 Pro encoder, to 5.1 surround.
4.) Use TSMuxer to mux the audio and video files together from above into Blu-ray BDMV folders.
5.) Burn the folders to BD-R/RE disk.

XDCAM to disk with no re-encoding of the video whatsoever, or minimal rendering of only the graded parts and transitions. Camera to Blu-ray disk in minutes, literally, at the full native quality. If anyone can beat the speed, I'll eat my hat!

Perrone Ford · November 30th, 2009, 07:26 PM

If speed was what I was after, this workflow would be awesome. Sadly, it's not.

Tom Roper · November 30th, 2009, 08:36 PM

Understood.

Blu-ray as a target however, is one of the reasons I prefer XDCAM-EX workflows over the superior Pro-Res or XDCAM 50 mbps 422, since Blu-ray is 4:2:0, and the native 35 mbps HQ bit rate of XDCAM-EX is a match for the maximum Blu-ray playback rate. The others codecs HAVE to be re re-encoded which is fine, but just takes a bit more time. The nanoflash fits nicely into the DVDA scheme for Blu-ray as well, since it accepts 100 mbps 4:2:2 (seen as 50 mbps), and then recompressed spectacularly to AVC 27 mbps VBR to Blu-ray target by DVDA.

Those reasons aside, I hate Blu-ray, it's a mess, but the best consumer format we have.

Currently, I think Blu-ray is one area where the PC is currently a little easier to work with than Mac (at this time).

November 29th, 2009, 08:38 AM	#1
Sunny Dhinsey Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: London, England Posts: 127	Blu-ray bit rate = biting nails I've encoded a 3hr 38min project using the following settings: MPEG2 .m2t 1440 x 1080 384kbit audio Max bit rate 30mbps Average bit rate 25mbps Minimum bit rate 15mbps Now, when I import the file (approx 44GB in size) into DVD Arch Pro 5, the application wants to recompress the file as it's stating that the .m2t is not a compliant file?? I've noticed, that from the DVD Arch project settings, I have to specify a project bit rate. Is this what's causing the application to recompress? Is there anyway I can just allow the project to use the bit rates the m2t is encoded at (like I do when making DVDs?) Do I need to re-encode the original m2t at a constant bit rate and then select that in the DVD Arch project settings? Will recompressing the m2t in DVD Arch consume even more of my life? Help!!! Thanks in advance __________________ Sunny Dhinsey Director - www.filmlore.tv

November 29th, 2009, 09:27 AM	#2
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 4,100	Being perfectly honest, I think the Vegas -> DVDA process is garbage at this point. So what I do is to output a high quality (usually lossless) master from Vegas. I'd need one anyway for archiving. And then let DVDA do it's thing with that file. This is the opposite of how I work with DVDs, but I've been pleased with my BluRay's done using this method. -P __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.

November 29th, 2009, 10:54 AM	#3
Sunny Dhinsey Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: London, England Posts: 127	Hi Perrone, thanks for your response, What bit rate settings do you use for your lossless HQ render? I'm assuming rendering a 3hr 38min .m2t would take an age to produce such a file? My blu-ray project is actually made up of two Files 1) 2hrs 18 mins .m2t at the previously mentioned bitrate average 2) 1hr 20mins at 18mbps CBR Am lost as to what would be the optimal settings in DVD Arch 5 in terms of bitrate :oS Don't really want to have to render the whole thing again as it's taken the best part of this weekend to render it initially __________________ Sunny Dhinsey Director - www.filmlore.tv

November 29th, 2009, 11:51 AM	#4
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 4,100	Really, it only appears you have two options. 1. Let DVDA recompress. 2. Create a lossless export When you select a lossless export from Vegas, you don't get to specify a bitrate. It just uses whatever it needs to ensure no loss. I typically make Lagarith .AVI files from Vegas for this purpose, though there are other options. Sorry about your troubles. And this is one reason that I spend SO much time getting raw footage from as many cameras as I can to test workflows. So that when a large project comes in, I already understand how to get my results. __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.

November 30th, 2009, 01:28 AM	#6
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 4,100	Tom, I wish it were that simple. As an example, I had a screening a week ago. I was tasked with preparing a BluRay of a 15 minute short. Source files came to me in ProRes and DNxHD. I placed the DNxHD file on the timeline, and chose to do a 1080/60i BluRay. I chose the defaults, and rendered. When I opened the file in DVDA, it wanted to recompress. I repeated the process but chose the Mpeg2 file as I seen that behavior before with AVC encoded files. The Mpeg2 did not want to import either. In the end, I laid the DNxHD file into the timeline in DVDA and let it do it's deal. No problems there, but as you say, it was slow. I was very unhappy with that result and really need to try some more workflow tests before my screening this coming Friday. I may update this thread with my findings. __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.

November 30th, 2009, 01:13 AM	#5
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	Perrone is right, although I don't think the Vegas to DVDA process is as much garbage as it is restrictive. If you use the Vegas Blu-ray template, DVDA will accept without further recompression. If you change the template settings, DVDA will recompress. It's simple as that, your choice. Personally, the DVDA AVC encoder yields outstanding VBR quality, but it's slow. In your case, since your started with non-compliant mpeg files, I think the DVDA AVC encoder is your best bet for quality, and you won't notice a quality loss. You can choose any bit rate with DVDA AVC encoder up to 40 mbps, but for compliance with the BD-R/RE physical media a practical limit of 25 mbps average bit rate should be observed. Since it's VBR, the bit rate could still peak at 35-40 mbps. What I would not do, is allow DVDA to recompress your existing mpeg into another, further degraded mpeg.

November 30th, 2009, 07:56 AM	#7
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	I always get Vegas to encode to the DVDA Bluray preset (since I use the markers set in Vegas as chapter points)but modify to meet my needs. Never had a problem. For almost 4 hours using MPEG2 the average bit rate to fit on a 25G Bluray is going to be very low, say 14. If you are putting on a 50G disc it should go with the default 25 settings though that may still be close and average of 22 may be more appropriate. You will have to do two renders from Vegas. One for video and one for audio and make sure that DVDA preferences are set up for both correctly. IF you have AC3 as audio and bring in PCM DVDA will render audio etc. Your other option is to use AVC render which will take a lot longer. Ron Evans

November 30th, 2009, 08:01 AM	#8
Phivo Christodoulou Regular Crew Join Date: May 2009 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 39	Hi Sunny, I am not a Vegas user but here are some possible reasons for your troubles. The more I think about it, the reason it is telling you that the m2t file is a non-compliant file is because a Blu-ray file for authoring should either be .h264 or MPG. It's like importing an AVI and expecting it to burn straight to DVD. You need to turn the AVI into an MPG first. Perhaps the problem I used to encounter from Grass Valley Edius to Adobe Encore is the same. Encore would always want to re-encode the HD MPG files. To eliminate this you must ensure that you select "MP@HL" in the encoding options. You say that the file is 44GB in size. Unless you are burning dual layer blu-ray, this is another reason why it wants to re-encode - it won't fit on a 25GB single layer Blu-ray disc. Encoding blu-ray compliant HD MPG files in Edius takes me approximately 20 minutes for one hour of content (40MBPS highest quality). How long would something like that take on Vegas? I am curious as all programs have their pros and cons. Lastly, you said that you encoded the audio at 384kbps. That's great if the quality you began with is that high, but if for example you are encoding things such as music downloaded from iTunes which is at 256kbps you will not see any extra benefit. It's like making a blu-ray disc using SD footage - you may as well burn an SD DVD instead because the quality will be the same. I hope that this is helpful to you. Best of luck with it.

November 30th, 2009, 06:42 PM	#9
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	For PC users, and if you don't need menus but just want a quick proof of concept, you can skip DVDA and use TSMuxer, which will author Blu-ray BDMV or AVCHD, and it will accept most any source files, no recompression. Or multiAVCHD will do the same with menus, using TSMuxer as a plugin. TSMuxer is an indespensible utility for saving time. DVDA is good for a finished product, where as Perrone put it, when you have time to let it do its thing. I use TSMuxer 90% of the time, and use DVDA when a polished presentation is called for. The AVC encoding from the source video is really very good, just slow. DVDA also accepts 100 mbps 4:2:2 from the Nanoflash. TSMuxer will accept that as well, as I said there isn't much it won't accept, but if there isn't compliancy with Blu-ray it won't play so the restrictive pickiness of DVDA has some merit. If DVDA was the only tool in the bag for authoring Blu-ray, I would have to agree it would be a very frustrating, slow process. You really, really need to give TSMuxer a try. It's free, an indespensible utility when saving time.

November 30th, 2009, 07:11 PM	#10
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	Here's an XDCAM quality workflow that can't be beat: 1.) Use Vegas to smart render (no recompression) a HQ 35 mbps mxf file, to mxf using the Sony mxf encoder. 2.) Strip away the mxf container, leaving you with just the 35 mbps long gop mpeg-2 video file .m2v. 3.) Separately render the audio using the Sony AC3 Pro encoder, to 5.1 surround. 4.) Use TSMuxer to mux the audio and video files together from above into Blu-ray BDMV folders. 5.) Burn the folders to BD-R/RE disk. XDCAM to disk with no re-encoding of the video whatsoever, or minimal rendering of only the graded parts and transitions. Camera to Blu-ray disk in minutes, literally, at the full native quality. If anyone can beat the speed, I'll eat my hat!

November 30th, 2009, 07:26 PM	#11
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 4,100	If speed was what I was after, this workflow would be awesome. Sadly, it's not. __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.

November 30th, 2009, 08:36 PM	#12
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	Understood. Blu-ray as a target however, is one of the reasons I prefer XDCAM-EX workflows over the superior Pro-Res or XDCAM 50 mbps 422, since Blu-ray is 4:2:0, and the native 35 mbps HQ bit rate of XDCAM-EX is a match for the maximum Blu-ray playback rate. The others codecs HAVE to be re re-encoded which is fine, but just takes a bit more time. The nanoflash fits nicely into the DVDA scheme for Blu-ray as well, since it accepts 100 mbps 4:2:2 (seen as 50 mbps), and then recompressed spectacularly to AVC 27 mbps VBR to Blu-ray target by DVDA. Those reasons aside, I hate Blu-ray, it's a mess, but the best consumer format we have. Currently, I think Blu-ray is one area where the PC is currently a little easier to work with than Mac (at this time).