Best Project and render settings to create DVD? at DVinfo.net

Thomas Moore · November 2nd, 2009, 06:31 AM

Footage shot 720/60p, transcoded using neoscene with "high" settings enable smart rendering set.

When I watch the .avi files from Cineform - or from my footage - looks good not fuzzy etc.

Sony Vegas 9c project settings - as I've read somewhere else that you should always set your project to the output - which is DVD in this case.

720x480 Progressive Scan 29.970 (NTSC) 32Bit Floating point (video levels) 1.2121 (NTSC DV Widescreen)

Reso Best.

Here in preview gets kind of fuzzy - originally attributed it to the fact that it won't always run in "full" mode

Output DVDA NTSC Widescreen Video Stream template (MPEG-2)
720X482 everything default except for changing Field order to progressive and setting two pass.

DVDA settings

Disc Format DVD
Vid Format (since there are no progressive settings) MPEG-2 720X480 60I (NTSC)

Final result fuzzy...

Thanks for any help in getting this right.

Don Bloom · November 2nd, 2009, 09:18 AM

fuzzy in the DVDA preview or is the DVD played on a TV fuzzy?

I've found the DVDA preview is not the sharpest look but when I play DVDs on my 42inch they look fine.

Thomas Moore · November 2nd, 2009, 09:54 AM

Fuzzy, on the PC or TV.

By fuzzy I mean everything not right in front of the camera soft and out of focus. Overall quality on a scale of 1-10, 5

When view the .avi from neoscene no softness, no out of focus quality 10.

Terry Esslinger · November 3rd, 2009, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Moore

Sony Vegas 9c project settings - as I've read somewhere else that you should always set your project to the output - which is DVD in this case.

.

I thought I read that project settings should match your project media, not the output?

Thomas Moore · November 3rd, 2009, 02:11 PM

I've seen it both ways but based on some input on a different forum I went ahead and set project to my NeoScene files - 1280x720 and then rendered out using the default DV Widescreen - much better...

Brian Luce · November 3rd, 2009, 07:44 PM

Did you render the audio and video file separately?

Ken Diewert · November 3rd, 2009, 11:26 PM

You'll have to do a little digging through this thread but there is a wealth of info on how to best render for DVD. It takes a little time but it's well worth it. Basically it's the resizing in vegas that causes the quality loss, so you render as a 1440x180 (or 1280 x 720), then use Virtualdub or tmpgenc Welcome to virtualdub.org! - virtualdub.org or TMPGEnc.NET to resize the file to 720 x 480.

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/what-hap...d-quality.html

Like I said it's a little bit of work - I think I spent an entire weekend (literally- probably 20 straight hours) working through it, but it is worth it. The problem is not just a Vegas issue, it's all NLE as explained in this article Precomposed Blog - HD to SD DVD - Best Methods

Good luck and have patience - because the results really are worth the work, once you've figured it out the first time.

Brian Luce · November 4th, 2009, 11:13 AM

If you don't want to sift through all 12 pages of Perrone's VD thread, here are the Cliff notes:

I took 2 frames of a RED 4k file and laid it onto a timeline. I conformed that timeline to 1024x512 to preserve the 2:1 layout of the original. I took a frameshot of that 1024x512 file. I then went back to a 4k timeline, rendered that 4k RED file to a 4k uncompressed AVI file. Pulled that into virtualdub, did a lanczos resize to 720x360, and rendered back out uncompressed. Put that onto a 720x360 timeline, and took another frameshot.

As for the VDub workflow it's simple.

1. Import interlaced high quality .avi file
2. Select "Resize"
3. Input desired size (720x480)
4. Select Lanczos as the rescaler
5. Choose compression type for output
6. Save new .avi file.

Done.

Perrone, with creating the initial .avi, what sort of hard drive space are we talking about here - what .avi settings are you using?
I use the Lagarith codec (works in 32 and 64 bit modes and is lossless). For audio I am using PCM 16 or 24bit 48KHz.

It's about 460 Mbps so works out to roughly 3GB/min. Which is about 1/3 what uncompressed 10bit AVI would be or just less than half what uncompressed 8-bit uncompressed would be.
The 720x405 works fine for SD. It's a bit tricky for those with 16:9 TVs. 720x480 with the widescreen flag on should work fine for making SD discs and it's what I tend to do these days.

I avoid non-square pixels like the plague. They complicate matters more than necessary. Once you get to square pixels everything becomes perfectly simple.

DVDA is DVD Architect. If you open that application, choose New > Single Movie. It will let you select a video and audio file. It will not create a menu or separate chapters. It just makes a simple DVD that auto-plays when inserted into a DVD player.

Virtualdub ONLY understand .avi files (and a couple specialized files with some hacks) so you will need to create an .avi master to bring into virtualdub. This should be done with a lossless .avi codec like Lagarith, HuffYUV, or uncompressed. Cineform is also a legal type to bring into Virtualdub, but it is not lossless.

7d workflow:
1. Convert 1080 .MOV into 720 .AVI (take the lossy hit)
2. Edit video, add titles, cross fades, credits, whatever - finish content of movie.
3. Render in Vegas Studio to ? (.AVI again?)
4. Bring finished rendered .AVI into Virtualdub and resize (what size?) with Lanczos scaler.
5. Within Virtualdub, export a Lagarith or HuffYUV compressed AVI
6. Bring that into DVDA and select single movie and it will automatically convert it to a MP2 for DVD burn.

When I bring the material into DVD Architect, I get asked what kind of DVD I want to create. I choose NTSC 60i.

Originally Posted by Harry Simpson
So my 5D Mk2 shoots 1080/30fps so should i produce an AVI in Vegas at that? (ie no resizing) I had been rendering in Vegas to 720.

I did find Lanczos scaler.
Where is the HuffYUV or Lagarith lossless in Vegas and in VirtualDub. I've spent hours looking for those suckas!!

Thanks
In Vegas choose Render As and pick a template. Then click on Custom/Video/Video Format. They are in the drop down list.

In Virtual Dub they are under the Video/Compression/Select Video Compression list

John Peterson

t this point i've refined my process to this:

1. Pull .MOV (native 1920x1080p/30fps) into timeline
2. Edit video, add titles, cross fades, credits, whatever - finish content of movie.
3. Render in Vegas Studio to 1920x1080p/30fps with Lagarith pixel ar 1:1 (if i play resultant AVI in Windows Media Player it'd like learning how to drive a stick shift - figured that was my poor computer cound'nt process the full HD but the MP2 will be smooth)
4. Pull the full sized AVI into VirtualDub
5. In VirtualDub set the filter - add resize with Lanczos scaler to 720x405 (Match original AR)
6. In VirtualDub choose compression type for output to a Lagarith or HuffYUV AVI (Think i may have skipped this step in VD though i did this already in Vegas when i rendered....do i need to do it twice?)
7. Save .avi file
7. Bring that into DVDA and select single movie and it will automatically convert it to a MP2 for DVD burn.

Harry Simpson

Found the MPEG-2 Main Concepts type but could not customize the video to change the output size to same VD produced which was 720x405 - so all i could do is bring the product of VD into DVDA and burning to DVD now.....
This is correct. DVDA or Mainconcept in Vegas will both create a 720x480 project. You want that, so don't worry.

When you create DVDs, the video portion and the audio portion are compressed separately. So you compress the video in Vegas to Mpeg2. Then you compress the audio separately with the Dolby Digitial AC-3 Studio Template. Name this the same thing as you named the video file, and when you are in DVDA and drop the video file on the timeline, the audio will come with it automatically.

The Audio must be compressed separately, because audio in the DVD legal format isn't compressed with the same codec as the video. So you must separate them.

Virtualdub is generally quite fast for me, but it does use the GPU on my machines which helps I guess. Resize can be a pretty heavy function, but it's not the worst.

Thomas Moore · November 4th, 2009, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Luce

Did you render the audio and video file separately?

Yes, I do render both seperatly.

Thomas Moore · November 4th, 2009, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Luce

If you don't want to sift through all 12 pages of Perrone's VD thread, here are the Cliff notes:

Wow, thanks, I was just getting to page 3 of that thread lol...

So just to be sure, even though I'm filming in progressive I should put the .avi out as interlaced?

Brian Luce · November 4th, 2009, 01:33 PM

I'll stand on someone else's shoulders (Perrone's):

Originally Posted by Jeff Kellam View Post
What I am wondering is if we shouldn't all just start shooting the dreaded interlaced (1920X1080i60) if we are not shooting 24P?
A. Good gracious why? If you plan to deliver for broadcast (over the air or on optical) then yes, shoot 24p or 60i. Otherwise, shoot what you want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kellam View Post
We are all rendering back to interlaced anyway
A. No, we are not all rendering back to interlaced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kellam View Post
I am starting to wonder what the purpose of 30P is since there is no native 30P playback.
A. I don't typically shoot 30p, but if I have significant motion, and I am delivering for non-broadcast, then 30p becomes viable. I typically shoot 24p or 60p though.

November 2nd, 2009, 06:31 AM	#1
Thomas Moore Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Ravenna, OH Posts: 198	Best Project and render settings to create DVD? Footage shot 720/60p, transcoded using neoscene with "high" settings enable smart rendering set. When I watch the .avi files from Cineform - or from my footage - looks good not fuzzy etc. Sony Vegas 9c project settings - as I've read somewhere else that you should always set your project to the output - which is DVD in this case. 720x480 Progressive Scan 29.970 (NTSC) 32Bit Floating point (video levels) 1.2121 (NTSC DV Widescreen) Reso Best. Here in preview gets kind of fuzzy - originally attributed it to the fact that it won't always run in "full" mode Output DVDA NTSC Widescreen Video Stream template (MPEG-2) 720X482 everything default except for changing Field order to progressive and setting two pass. DVDA settings Disc Format DVD Vid Format (since there are no progressive settings) MPEG-2 720X480 60I (NTSC) Final result fuzzy... Thanks for any help in getting this right.

November 2nd, 2009, 09:18 AM	#2
Don Bloom Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,609	fuzzy in the DVDA preview or is the DVD played on a TV fuzzy? I've found the DVDA preview is not the sharpest look but when I play DVDs on my 42inch they look fine. __________________ What do I know? I'm just a video-O-grafer. Don

November 3rd, 2009, 11:26 PM	#7
Ken Diewert Trustee Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Vancouver Island, Canada Posts: 1,200	You'll have to do a little digging through this thread but there is a wealth of info on how to best render for DVD. It takes a little time but it's well worth it. Basically it's the resizing in vegas that causes the quality loss, so you render as a 1440x180 (or 1280 x 720), then use Virtualdub or tmpgenc Welcome to virtualdub.org! - virtualdub.org or TMPGEnc.NET to resize the file to 720 x 480. http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/what-hap...d-quality.html Like I said it's a little bit of work - I think I spent an entire weekend (literally- probably 20 straight hours) working through it, but it is worth it. The problem is not just a Vegas issue, it's all NLE as explained in this article Precomposed Blog - HD to SD DVD - Best Methods Good luck and have patience - because the results really are worth the work, once you've figured it out the first time. __________________ C100, 5DMk2, FCPX

November 2nd, 2009, 09:54 AM	#3
Thomas Moore Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Ravenna, OH Posts: 198	Fuzzy, on the PC or TV. By fuzzy I mean everything not right in front of the camera soft and out of focus. Overall quality on a scale of 1-10, 5 When view the .avi from neoscene no softness, no out of focus quality 10.

November 3rd, 2009, 02:11 PM	#5
Thomas Moore Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Ravenna, OH Posts: 198	I've seen it both ways but based on some input on a different forum I went ahead and set project to my NeoScene files - 1280x720 and then rendered out using the default DV Widescreen - much better...

November 3rd, 2009, 07:44 PM	#6
Brian Luce Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,290	Did you render the audio and video file separately?

November 4th, 2009, 11:13 AM	#8
Brian Luce Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,290	If you don't want to sift through all 12 pages of Perrone's VD thread, here are the Cliff notes: I took 2 frames of a RED 4k file and laid it onto a timeline. I conformed that timeline to 1024x512 to preserve the 2:1 layout of the original. I took a frameshot of that 1024x512 file. I then went back to a 4k timeline, rendered that 4k RED file to a 4k uncompressed AVI file. Pulled that into virtualdub, did a lanczos resize to 720x360, and rendered back out uncompressed. Put that onto a 720x360 timeline, and took another frameshot. As for the VDub workflow it's simple. 1. Import interlaced high quality .avi file 2. Select "Resize" 3. Input desired size (720x480) 4. Select Lanczos as the rescaler 5. Choose compression type for output 6. Save new .avi file. Done. Perrone, with creating the initial .avi, what sort of hard drive space are we talking about here - what .avi settings are you using? I use the Lagarith codec (works in 32 and 64 bit modes and is lossless). For audio I am using PCM 16 or 24bit 48KHz. It's about 460 Mbps so works out to roughly 3GB/min. Which is about 1/3 what uncompressed 10bit AVI would be or just less than half what uncompressed 8-bit uncompressed would be. The 720x405 works fine for SD. It's a bit tricky for those with 16:9 TVs. 720x480 with the widescreen flag on should work fine for making SD discs and it's what I tend to do these days. I avoid non-square pixels like the plague. They complicate matters more than necessary. Once you get to square pixels everything becomes perfectly simple. DVDA is DVD Architect. If you open that application, choose New > Single Movie. It will let you select a video and audio file. It will not create a menu or separate chapters. It just makes a simple DVD that auto-plays when inserted into a DVD player. Virtualdub ONLY understand .avi files (and a couple specialized files with some hacks) so you will need to create an .avi master to bring into virtualdub. This should be done with a lossless .avi codec like Lagarith, HuffYUV, or uncompressed. Cineform is also a legal type to bring into Virtualdub, but it is not lossless. 7d workflow: 1. Convert 1080 .MOV into 720 .AVI (take the lossy hit) 2. Edit video, add titles, cross fades, credits, whatever - finish content of movie. 3. Render in Vegas Studio to ? (.AVI again?) 4. Bring finished rendered .AVI into Virtualdub and resize (what size?) with Lanczos scaler. 5. Within Virtualdub, export a Lagarith or HuffYUV compressed AVI 6. Bring that into DVDA and select single movie and it will automatically convert it to a MP2 for DVD burn. When I bring the material into DVD Architect, I get asked what kind of DVD I want to create. I choose NTSC 60i. Originally Posted by Harry Simpson So my 5D Mk2 shoots 1080/30fps so should i produce an AVI in Vegas at that? (ie no resizing) I had been rendering in Vegas to 720. I did find Lanczos scaler. Where is the HuffYUV or Lagarith lossless in Vegas and in VirtualDub. I've spent hours looking for those suckas!! Thanks In Vegas choose Render As and pick a template. Then click on Custom/Video/Video Format. They are in the drop down list. In Virtual Dub they are under the Video/Compression/Select Video Compression list John Peterson t this point i've refined my process to this: 1. Pull .MOV (native 1920x1080p/30fps) into timeline 2. Edit video, add titles, cross fades, credits, whatever - finish content of movie. 3. Render in Vegas Studio to 1920x1080p/30fps with Lagarith pixel ar 1:1 (if i play resultant AVI in Windows Media Player it'd like learning how to drive a stick shift - figured that was my poor computer cound'nt process the full HD but the MP2 will be smooth) 4. Pull the full sized AVI into VirtualDub 5. In VirtualDub set the filter - add resize with Lanczos scaler to 720x405 (Match original AR) 6. In VirtualDub choose compression type for output to a Lagarith or HuffYUV AVI (Think i may have skipped this step in VD though i did this already in Vegas when i rendered....do i need to do it twice?) 7. Save .avi file 7. Bring that into DVDA and select single movie and it will automatically convert it to a MP2 for DVD burn. Harry Simpson Found the MPEG-2 Main Concepts type but could not customize the video to change the output size to same VD produced which was 720x405 - so all i could do is bring the product of VD into DVDA and burning to DVD now..... This is correct. DVDA or Mainconcept in Vegas will both create a 720x480 project. You want that, so don't worry. When you create DVDs, the video portion and the audio portion are compressed separately. So you compress the video in Vegas to Mpeg2. Then you compress the audio separately with the Dolby Digitial AC-3 Studio Template. Name this the same thing as you named the video file, and when you are in DVDA and drop the video file on the timeline, the audio will come with it automatically. The Audio must be compressed separately, because audio in the DVD legal format isn't compressed with the same codec as the video. So you must separate them. Virtualdub is generally quite fast for me, but it does use the GPU on my machines which helps I guess. Resize can be a pretty heavy function, but it's not the worst.

November 4th, 2009, 01:33 PM	#11
Brian Luce Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,290	I'll stand on someone else's shoulders (Perrone's): Originally Posted by Jeff Kellam View Post What I am wondering is if we shouldn't all just start shooting the dreaded interlaced (1920X1080i60) if we are not shooting 24P? A. Good gracious why? If you plan to deliver for broadcast (over the air or on optical) then yes, shoot 24p or 60i. Otherwise, shoot what you want. Quote: Originally Posted by Jeff Kellam View Post We are all rendering back to interlaced anyway A. No, we are not all rendering back to interlaced. Quote: Originally Posted by Jeff Kellam View Post I am starting to wonder what the purpose of 30P is since there is no native 30P playback. A. I don't typically shoot 30p, but if I have significant motion, and I am delivering for non-broadcast, then 30p becomes viable. I typically shoot 24p or 60p though.