Vegas Video discussions from 2005 (Q3Q4)

John McGinley · September 28th, 2005, 12:21 PM

The Cineform stuff is good. But, I like the speed at which I can work with the proxies, and the space they take up on the harddrive is the same as the raw m2t files. An hour of footage is about 12 gigs. I don't have a blazing fast system, but it's pretty good, Hyperthreaded P4 3.2Ghz with 2 gigs of ram. It handles the Cineform stuff ok, but it handles DV stuff really fast, so I make all my edits, switch gears, color correct and render out. Maybe when I get a dual core system I'll edit in full HDV res. But when I'm used to editing at a certain speed, it's hard to change those habits.

Laurence Kingston · September 28th, 2005, 01:52 PM

Well I have what used to be cool: a 3.06 P4 (533 bus) with 2 gig of ram. Anyway, it's a little less horsepower than you have. Gearshift is definately cool, I have it as well. I still like Cineform with the ConnectHD capture utility better.

The Cinneform ConnectHD capture utility converts clips as you capture them and the size is not much bigger than the M2T and proxy files added together. Some of the Cineform features like scene separation and smartrendering are really important to me. I've noticed some pretty bad errors rendering from M2T to M2T and quite frankly, I just don't trust it.

Steve Crisdale · September 28th, 2005, 07:46 PM

This is the sort of discussion that shows that HDV is maturing as a format...

It's good to see this sort of informed appraisal of the benefits of HDV editing tools coming from the rapidly growing band of HDV camera owners.

Richard Firnges · September 29th, 2005, 04:18 AM

I had a similar problem downconverting 1440 x 1080 and 1280 x 720 to SD - Pal. On a few points an "irregular" frame instead of the "right" one apeared. So far it happened not when I stayed in the same format.

Richard

Richard Firnges · September 29th, 2005, 04:37 AM

Usually the playback of NTSC - DVDs is no Problem - actually quite a few music - DVDs in the NTSC - Format are sold in Europe. With decent hardware there is no problem. But especially in some cheap DVD players NTSC can result in very bad picture quality. But it will be watcheable. From my experience (TV an DVDs) convertet material from NTSC to Pal usually looks terrible (framerate conversion, brownisch, soft, muddy picture). So as a Custoner I would always prefer a "real" NTSC - DVD over a coverted product.

Richard from Pal Country

Peter Moore · September 29th, 2005, 07:36 AM

Did it actually repeat a frame and throw off the entire sequence? That's what's happening here. And in my case it IS staying in the same format, which makes it even more bizarre.

John Cline · September 29th, 2005, 10:55 AM

The following is my reply to a message about repeating frames in Vegas. While it was about 29.97 fps vs. 29.97002997, it may be applicable to 24 fps vs 23.976.

----------------------------------------

Is this footage that you have captured with the Vegas capture utility or is this footage from another source? Unlike every other video program, Vegas uses a frame rate of 29.970029970 (30000/1001), whereas everyone else uses 29.970 (2997/100).

Curiously, the Vegas frame rate it is absolutely correct and everyone else is doing it wrong. (Well, not wrong exactly, just less precise.)

I have noticed that when I bring in footage which was created or processed outside of Vegas, the frames on the timeline may not match up to the "ticks." One more annoying and very noticable effect is that if if you use footage that has been created outside Vegas and place it on the timeline, at 2 seconds 28 frames from the beginning of the clip, it will repeat a frame regardless of where you put it in the timeline. Usually, this isn't noticeable but its guaranteed to happen. Once I had a logo animation and at 2 seconds 28 frames into the animation, there was a really quick move and the animation would stutter at that point. It drove me NUTS until I figured out what was going on. I raised a stink about it here on the forums a year or more ago, but the reply I got from Sony ( then Sonic Foundry) was that they couldn't help it if they were doing the frame rate correctly and everyone else was doing it wrong.

The workaround turned out to be re-writing the header of the AVI file and change it from 2997/100 to 30000/1001 and that fixed it.

A Sony Vegas forum member named "Brazilian" came to the rescue and wrote a command-line program called "Speedmangler" which changes the header in a 29.97 fps AVI to 29.97002997 for use within Vegas. (It will also do the reverse.) I use it ALL the time and it has been a lifesaver. You can download it from my web site here:

http://www.johncline.com/speedmangler.zip

Here is the ReadMe file from the Speedmangler program:

-----------------------
SpeedMangler
-----------------------

SpeedMangler attempts to mangle the framerate of an AVI file to the exact framerate of NTSC video, which is actually (30000/1001)fps, or to any framerate you want.

Some other apps mark their NTSC AVIs as 29.97 even, which causes a speed mismatch in other apps that use the more precise framerate calculation and can cause frames to drop or repeat. For example, Adobe's After Effects writes it's movies as 2997/100, whereas Sonic Foundry's Vegas captures and operates at 30000/1001.

SpeedMangler needs to be run from a command prompt (Start Menu -> Programs -> Accessories -> Command Prompt, or use the keyboard Windows Key+R and type "cmd")

Usage: SpeedMangler.exe [filename] [rate] [scale]

[rate] and [scale] are optional arguments to set the rate and scale arbitrarily; If not specified, they default to 30000 and 1001 respectively.

NOTE: Altering the framerate with SpeedMangler does not actually resample the video frames; Drastically changing the framerate will cause audio in the AVI file to no longer be in sync.
---------------------------------

You can use the SpeedReader.exe utility to see what frame rate is actually written into the header of the file and use SpeedMangler.exe to change it. I haven't looked at a 24 fps file, but perhaps external video programs are using 2397/100 instead of 24000/1001 which would be 23.97 fps vs 23.976023976 fps (which is, no doubt, the rate which Vegas uses.)

John

Laurence Kingston · September 29th, 2005, 02:44 PM

The Mike Crash deinterlace plugin was updated recently. Anyone who has been using it a while should make sure they've downloaded the latest version.

James Binder · September 29th, 2005, 03:45 PM

Can I copy an audio and video track from one Vegas project and paste into another (preserving envelops and edits)?

I need to save/copy (then import/paste) a short section of combined video and audio -- not import the original files into the different project...

Whadayathink?

Thanks --

Tony Rockliff · September 29th, 2005, 03:59 PM

Yes, just open 2 instances of Vegas and copy and paste from one to the other. This is for Vegas 5. I think in Vegas 6 you can nest one project within another.

James Binder · September 29th, 2005, 04:24 PM

Thanks Tony --

Didn't realize that I could open two instances of Vegas...

How about copying effects? Two of my audio tracks have 3 plugs each in the track FX section. Sure would be nice to copy efects rather than having to load each and reset all over again.

The copy/paste went fine -- volume envelopes and all, but no effects copied to new...

Thanks for the help...

Running Vegas 5 btw

Tony Rockliff · September 29th, 2005, 04:51 PM

There are proably other ways to copy the effects (maybe in Excalibur or even Vegas itself?) but what I currently do is save the effects as a chain using Ultimate S2 and then re-open the chain in the 2nd Vegas instance.

Edward Troxel · September 29th, 2005, 07:00 PM

TRACK level effects cannot be copied between projects. You have to manually save and load them. Creating chains is a good alternative - either in Vegas itself or with Ultimate S. Excalibur can add the effects but doesn't save chains.

James Binder · September 29th, 2005, 08:18 PM

Yeah -- I created chains... would be nice to have a copy FX function... no?

Thanks again...

Ruben Pla · September 29th, 2005, 09:37 PM

Hi, guys. I've heard differing views on this, so I'd like to hear your take.

If I re-render a file that's already been rendered, does it lose ANY quality in definition? What if I re-render it several times?

Thank you,

Ruben

September 29th, 2005, 04:18 AM	#784
Richard Firnges Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 45	Similar problem I had a similar problem downconverting 1440 x 1080 and 1280 x 720 to SD - Pal. On a few points an "irregular" frame instead of the "right" one apeared. So far it happened not when I stayed in the same format. Richard

September 29th, 2005, 10:55 AM	#787
John Cline Major Player Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico USA Posts: 333	The following is my reply to a message about repeating frames in Vegas. While it was about 29.97 fps vs. 29.97002997, it may be applicable to 24 fps vs 23.976. ---------------------------------------- Is this footage that you have captured with the Vegas capture utility or is this footage from another source? Unlike every other video program, Vegas uses a frame rate of 29.970029970 (30000/1001), whereas everyone else uses 29.970 (2997/100). Curiously, the Vegas frame rate it is absolutely correct and everyone else is doing it wrong. (Well, not wrong exactly, just less precise.) I have noticed that when I bring in footage which was created or processed outside of Vegas, the frames on the timeline may not match up to the "ticks." One more annoying and very noticable effect is that if if you use footage that has been created outside Vegas and place it on the timeline, at 2 seconds 28 frames from the beginning of the clip, it will repeat a frame regardless of where you put it in the timeline. Usually, this isn't noticeable but its guaranteed to happen. Once I had a logo animation and at 2 seconds 28 frames into the animation, there was a really quick move and the animation would stutter at that point. It drove me NUTS until I figured out what was going on. I raised a stink about it here on the forums a year or more ago, but the reply I got from Sony ( then Sonic Foundry) was that they couldn't help it if they were doing the frame rate correctly and everyone else was doing it wrong. The workaround turned out to be re-writing the header of the AVI file and change it from 2997/100 to 30000/1001 and that fixed it. A Sony Vegas forum member named "Brazilian" came to the rescue and wrote a command-line program called "Speedmangler" which changes the header in a 29.97 fps AVI to 29.97002997 for use within Vegas. (It will also do the reverse.) I use it ALL the time and it has been a lifesaver. You can download it from my web site here: http://www.johncline.com/speedmangler.zip Here is the ReadMe file from the Speedmangler program: ----------------------- SpeedMangler ----------------------- SpeedMangler attempts to mangle the framerate of an AVI file to the exact framerate of NTSC video, which is actually (30000/1001)fps, or to any framerate you want. Some other apps mark their NTSC AVIs as 29.97 even, which causes a speed mismatch in other apps that use the more precise framerate calculation and can cause frames to drop or repeat. For example, Adobe's After Effects writes it's movies as 2997/100, whereas Sonic Foundry's Vegas captures and operates at 30000/1001. SpeedMangler needs to be run from a command prompt (Start Menu -> Programs -> Accessories -> Command Prompt, or use the keyboard Windows Key+R and type "cmd") Usage: SpeedMangler.exe [filename] [rate] [scale] [rate] and [scale] are optional arguments to set the rate and scale arbitrarily; If not specified, they default to 30000 and 1001 respectively. NOTE: Altering the framerate with SpeedMangler does not actually resample the video frames; Drastically changing the framerate will cause audio in the AVI file to no longer be in sync. --------------------------------- You can use the SpeedReader.exe utility to see what frame rate is actually written into the header of the file and use SpeedMangler.exe to change it. I haven't looked at a 24 fps file, but perhaps external video programs are using 2397/100 instead of 24000/1001 which would be 23.97 fps vs 23.976023976 fps (which is, no doubt, the rate which Vegas uses.) John Last edited by John Cline; September 29th, 2005 at 12:00 PM.

September 29th, 2005, 03:45 PM	#789
James Binder Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: NY, NYC Posts: 367	Copy audio/video from one project to another? Can I copy an audio and video track from one Vegas project and paste into another (preserving envelops and edits)? I need to save/copy (then import/paste) a short section of combined video and audio -- not import the original files into the different project... Whadayathink? Thanks --

September 29th, 2005, 07:00 PM	#793
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	TRACK level effects cannot be copied between projects. You have to manually save and load them. Creating chains is a good alternative - either in Vegas itself or with Ultimate S. Excalibur can add the effects but doesn't save chains. __________________ Edward Troxel [SCVU] JETDV Scripts/Scripting Tutorials/Excalibur/Montage Magic/Newsletters

September 29th, 2005, 09:37 PM	#795
Ruben Pla Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 80	Does re-rendering lose quality in image? Hi, guys. I've heard differing views on this, so I'd like to hear your take. If I re-render a file that's already been rendered, does it lose ANY quality in definition? What if I re-render it several times? Thank you, Ruben

September 28th, 2005, 12:21 PM	#781
John McGinley Regular Crew Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 142	The Cineform stuff is good. But, I like the speed at which I can work with the proxies, and the space they take up on the harddrive is the same as the raw m2t files. An hour of footage is about 12 gigs. I don't have a blazing fast system, but it's pretty good, Hyperthreaded P4 3.2Ghz with 2 gigs of ram. It handles the Cineform stuff ok, but it handles DV stuff really fast, so I make all my edits, switch gears, color correct and render out. Maybe when I get a dual core system I'll edit in full HDV res. But when I'm used to editing at a certain speed, it's hard to change those habits.

September 28th, 2005, 01:52 PM	#782
Laurence Kingston Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Clermont, FL. Posts: 941	Well I have what used to be cool: a 3.06 P4 (533 bus) with 2 gig of ram. Anyway, it's a little less horsepower than you have. Gearshift is definately cool, I have it as well. I still like Cineform with the ConnectHD capture utility better. The Cinneform ConnectHD capture utility converts clips as you capture them and the size is not much bigger than the M2T and proxy files added together. Some of the Cineform features like scene separation and smartrendering are really important to me. I've noticed some pretty bad errors rendering from M2T to M2T and quite frankly, I just don't trust it.

September 28th, 2005, 07:46 PM	#783
Steve Crisdale Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Katoomba NSW Australia Posts: 635	This is the sort of discussion that shows that HDV is maturing as a format... It's good to see this sort of informed appraisal of the benefits of HDV editing tools coming from the rapidly growing band of HDV camera owners.

September 29th, 2005, 04:37 AM	#785
Richard Firnges Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 45	Usually the playback of NTSC - DVDs is no Problem - actually quite a few music - DVDs in the NTSC - Format are sold in Europe. With decent hardware there is no problem. But especially in some cheap DVD players NTSC can result in very bad picture quality. But it will be watcheable. From my experience (TV an DVDs) convertet material from NTSC to Pal usually looks terrible (framerate conversion, brownisch, soft, muddy picture). So as a Custoner I would always prefer a "real" NTSC - DVD over a coverted product. Richard from Pal Country

September 29th, 2005, 07:36 AM	#786
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	Did it actually repeat a frame and throw off the entire sequence? That's what's happening here. And in my case it IS staying in the same format, which makes it even more bizarre.

September 29th, 2005, 02:44 PM	#788
Laurence Kingston Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Clermont, FL. Posts: 941	The Mike Crash deinterlace plugin was updated recently. Anyone who has been using it a while should make sure they've downloaded the latest version.

September 29th, 2005, 03:59 PM	#790
Tony Rockliff Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Dunedin, Florida Posts: 70	Yes, just open 2 instances of Vegas and copy and paste from one to the other. This is for Vegas 5. I think in Vegas 6 you can nest one project within another.

September 29th, 2005, 04:24 PM	#791
James Binder Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: NY, NYC Posts: 367	Thanks Tony -- Didn't realize that I could open two instances of Vegas... How about copying effects? Two of my audio tracks have 3 plugs each in the track FX section. Sure would be nice to copy efects rather than having to load each and reset all over again. The copy/paste went fine -- volume envelopes and all, but no effects copied to new... Thanks for the help... Running Vegas 5 btw

September 29th, 2005, 04:51 PM	#792
Tony Rockliff Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Dunedin, Florida Posts: 70	There are proably other ways to copy the effects (maybe in Excalibur or even Vegas itself?) but what I currently do is save the effects as a chain using Ultimate S2 and then re-open the chain in the 2nd Vegas instance.

September 29th, 2005, 08:18 PM	#794
James Binder Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: NY, NYC Posts: 367	Yeah -- I created chains... would be nice to have a copy FX function... no? Thanks again...