Lower field first at DVinfo.net

Michael Best · August 11th, 2004, 03:43 PM

Hi there - Project properties field order is lower field first,
individual event properties say 'none progressive scan'.
Should they be reset to lower field first or vice versa?

Or does it even matter?

Rob Lohman · August 12th, 2004, 02:44 AM

Yes it does matter. But it depends on how you recorded your
footage and with which camera. The Canon XL1S has a progressive
mode and so do other camera's like the DVX100. Depending on
that you either choose progressive for everything or lower field
first for everything (interlaced).

Michael Best · August 12th, 2004, 05:54 AM

ahh...so much to learn, XL1S, I don't believe it's set for progressive though.

Chris Thomas · August 12th, 2004, 12:52 PM

Does it matter between Lower Field First or Upper Field first?

Edward Troxel · August 12th, 2004, 01:42 PM

Standard DV is lower field first. I would try LOWER before I tried anything else.

Chris Thomas · August 12th, 2004, 01:46 PM

One final question, if I have interlaced video as a source, what steps do I need to take to output progressive?

Bill Ravens · August 12th, 2004, 02:03 PM

Rob...

hate to differ with you but the XL1s Frame Mode is still interlaced scan. Just that both scans happen at the same instant in time. De-interlacing in the "interpolate fields" mode should give a very good single frame progressive.

Rob Lohman · August 13th, 2004, 01:47 AM

Your welcome to differ Bill <g> I should've been a bit more carefull
when writing it down. Ofcourse it has no true progressive CCD's
so it is indeed interlace scanning CCD's, BUT WITH pixel shift.

In my opinion that always looks better than a de-interlace on the
computer (from what I've seen). It just "looks" like real progressive
although we all know it isn't in reality. So I meant to say that it
has a progressive out which isn't true progressive or something
like that.

Anyway, if you do capture in frame mode (semi progressive on the
XL1S) or true progressive on the XL2/DVX100 you set Vegas to
progressive instead of interlaced/lower field first. As I do with my
XL1S when editing footage.

Chris: what is your camera? if it has true progressive or a semi
form (only XL1(S)/GL1/2 has this) use that. Otherwise you'll have
to test and try various de-interlacing algorithms. I've never looked
at those since I always shot in frame mode.

Also there is a huge difference between lower and upper first,
stick with lower because, as Edward also states, that is the
format DV uses.

Andre De Clercq · August 13th, 2004, 02:43 AM

Bill, one of the properties of frame mode camera footage is that a frame (whether or not recorded as interlaced) is being composed out of two fields captured on two different slots in time. The frame mode in XL1s has the "one shot per frame" property which means that Rob is right. How they combine the pixels is not relevant for this definition.

Andre De Clercq · August 13th, 2004, 06:07 AM

....being composed out of two fields captured on two different slots in....
Sorry must be in one slot...

Chris Thomas · August 13th, 2004, 09:55 AM

I have a GL2, I am aware of frame mode. Have not used it yet, but I thought that due to the pixel shift method used, I still had to have the workspace set up for lower first, not progressive, since it is not true progressive. It is still unclear to me...

My question related to previously shot interlaced footage though.

Rob Lohman · August 13th, 2004, 10:03 AM

When shooting in frame mode you have to set your project
properties to PROGRESSIVE, NOT lower field first/interlaced.

Yes, DV is always interlaced, but that does not matter. The ONLY
difference in digital between interlaced and progressive is the
time difference between the fields. There is NO OTHER difference.

The data is stored exactly the same. Just select progressive!

Bill Ravens · August 13th, 2004, 02:31 PM

setting to progressive is the equivalent of setting to de-interlace. if you set lower field first, you are asking for an interlaced video stream. Indeed, set it to progressive, but, also, ya should select the de-interlace method. Of the choices, I would recommend interpolate.

Rob Lohman · August 14th, 2004, 06:10 AM

Why would you set de-interlace on progressive footage? That
will instruct the NLE to actually process your footage and should
yield lower resolution even with progressive since it will interpolate
your frames. Ofcourse if you actually have interlaced footage and
you want this turned into progressive de-interlace is the tool
for the job.

Michael Best · August 14th, 2004, 08:36 AM

I'm taking all this as -- Frame Mode > use Progressive for everything, Capture and Project Properties, as well as Render
Properties. Video Mode > Lower Field First.

Yes/No ??

August 11th, 2004, 03:43 PM	#1
Michael Best Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Oceanside Harbor, CA Posts: 446	Lower field first Hi there - Project properties field order is lower field first, individual event properties say 'none progressive scan'. Should they be reset to lower field first or vice versa? Or does it even matter?

August 12th, 2004, 02:44 AM	#2
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Yes it does matter. But it depends on how you recorded your footage and with which camera. The Canon XL1S has a progressive mode and so do other camera's like the DVX100. Depending on that you either choose progressive for everything or lower field first for everything (interlaced). __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

August 12th, 2004, 01:42 PM	#5
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	Standard DV is lower field first. I would try LOWER before I tried anything else. __________________ Edward Troxel [SCVU] JETDV Scripts/Scripting Tutorials/Excalibur/Montage Magic/Newsletters

August 13th, 2004, 01:47 AM	#8
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Your welcome to differ Bill <g> I should've been a bit more carefull when writing it down. Ofcourse it has no true progressive CCD's so it is indeed interlace scanning CCD's, BUT WITH pixel shift. In my opinion that always looks better than a de-interlace on the computer (from what I've seen). It just "looks" like real progressive although we all know it isn't in reality. So I meant to say that it has a progressive out which isn't true progressive or something like that. Anyway, if you do capture in frame mode (semi progressive on the XL1S) or true progressive on the XL2/DVX100 you set Vegas to progressive instead of interlaced/lower field first. As I do with my XL1S when editing footage. Chris: what is your camera? if it has true progressive or a semi form (only XL1(S)/GL1/2 has this) use that. Otherwise you'll have to test and try various de-interlacing algorithms. I've never looked at those since I always shot in frame mode. Also there is a huge difference between lower and upper first, stick with lower because, as Edward also states, that is the format DV uses. __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

August 13th, 2004, 10:03 AM	#12
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	When shooting in frame mode you have to set your project properties to PROGRESSIVE, NOT lower field first/interlaced. Yes, DV is always interlaced, but that does not matter. The ONLY difference in digital between interlaced and progressive is the time difference between the fields. There is NO OTHER difference. The data is stored exactly the same. Just select progressive! __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

August 12th, 2004, 05:54 AM	#3
Michael Best Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Oceanside Harbor, CA Posts: 446	ahh...so much to learn, XL1S, I don't believe it's set for progressive though.

August 12th, 2004, 12:52 PM	#4
Chris Thomas Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Burlington ON, Canada Posts: 118	Does it matter between Lower Field First or Upper Field first?

August 12th, 2004, 01:46 PM	#6
Chris Thomas Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Burlington ON, Canada Posts: 118	One final question, if I have interlaced video as a source, what steps do I need to take to output progressive?

August 12th, 2004, 02:03 PM	#7
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	Rob... hate to differ with you but the XL1s Frame Mode is still interlaced scan. Just that both scans happen at the same instant in time. De-interlacing in the "interpolate fields" mode should give a very good single frame progressive.

August 13th, 2004, 02:43 AM	#9
Andre De Clercq Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 804	Bill, one of the properties of frame mode camera footage is that a frame (whether or not recorded as interlaced) is being composed out of two fields captured on two different slots in time. The frame mode in XL1s has the "one shot per frame" property which means that Rob is right. How they combine the pixels is not relevant for this definition.

August 13th, 2004, 06:07 AM	#10
Andre De Clercq Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 804	....being composed out of two fields captured on two different slots in.... Sorry must be in one slot...

August 13th, 2004, 09:55 AM	#11
Chris Thomas Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Burlington ON, Canada Posts: 118	I have a GL2, I am aware of frame mode. Have not used it yet, but I thought that due to the pixel shift method used, I still had to have the workspace set up for lower first, not progressive, since it is not true progressive. It is still unclear to me... My question related to previously shot interlaced footage though.

August 13th, 2004, 02:31 PM	#13
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	setting to progressive is the equivalent of setting to de-interlace. if you set lower field first, you are asking for an interlaced video stream. Indeed, set it to progressive, but, also, ya should select the de-interlace method. Of the choices, I would recommend interpolate.

August 14th, 2004, 06:10 AM	#14
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Why would you set de-interlace on progressive footage? That will instruct the NLE to actually process your footage and should yield lower resolution even with progressive since it will interpolate your frames. Ofcourse if you actually have interlaced footage and you want this turned into progressive de-interlace is the tool for the job. __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

August 14th, 2004, 08:36 AM	#15
Michael Best Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Oceanside Harbor, CA Posts: 446	I'm taking all this as -- Frame Mode > use Progressive for everything, Capture and Project Properties, as well as Render Properties. Video Mode > Lower Field First. Yes/No ??