problem with burning .ac3 in 5.1 DVD project in DVD-Arch 1.

[Yi Fong Yu]

when i get home tonight i'll try to screencap my flow for ya =).

[Peter Jefferson]

so the question remains... has anyone burned a successful 5.1 DVD?



YES MANY TIMES!!!

[Yi Fong Yu]

well i've done it, here are the screencaps of what i'm describing:

http://fongunlimited.com/genmay/preference.gif
i have the m-audio revolution 7.1 sound card and this is the ONLY option i've gotten a 5.1 playback. i know i can do ASIO but it's a bit tricky getting that to work.

http://fongunlimited.com/genmay/project.gif
this is the project setting, as you can see it all conforms to the standard.

http://fongunlimited.com/genmay/surround.gif
i want audio coming from the CENTER ONLY (my source footage is in 16-bit stereo (i used xl1s)) no matter what happens. this is the only setting where it works. i've tried the others but there's always left and right speaker leakage.

http://fongunlimited.com/genmay/centeronly.gif
as you can see from the mixer only the center channel is on when i played it back.

http://fongunlimited.com/genmay/dialoguebox.gif
so i'm now saving as a simple 5.1 .ac3 file. it SHOULD be DVD-compliant. like i've written i can use powerDVD to playback this .ac3 file and it has 5.1, no problem. CENTER ONLY no leakage to either left nor right speakers.

http://fongunlimited.com/genmay/setaudio.gif
under DVD-Architect 2.0, i've set the audio to the .ac3 file. when i preview it, there is only sound coming from LEFT and RIGHT but NO CENTER! what the heck? does DVD-Architect not have 5.1 preview support? i could find it the preferences of DVD-Architect.

http://fongunlimited.com/genmay/optimize.gif
this is the problem here. as you can DVD-ARchitect thinks that my file is NOT compliant, i CANNOT select NO recompression. it MUST recompress. once it recompresses it defaults to 448k 5.1. in playback i can only listen to sounds coming from left and right channels, NOTHING in the center channel. should i use another DVD-authoring program?

furthermore i've been able to import .vob files into DVD-Architect but when i hit preview, no audio. when i prepare the DVD, it recompresses the audio portion EVEN THOUGH .vob already has DVD-compliant ac3! then i lose audio in the prepared folder for DVD burning. this is sooo weird. what am i doing wrong here? or is everyone experiencing the same thing?

[Peter Jefferson]

well i've done it, here are the screencaps of what i'm describing:

http://fongunlimited.com/genmay/preference.gif
i have the m-audio revolution 7.1 sound card and this is the ONLY option i've gotten a 5.1 playback. i know i can do ASIO but it's a bit tricky getting that to work.

((Tis cool, each card has its own config, just note that 7.1 will only be used when decoding ProlLogic2 or DDEX bitstreams)as wellas AEX2 games. ASIO is a driver.. not all cards support this, but ASIO is native 48k, so make sure its set to 48 if ur card is copatible with asio and u wish to use those drivers.)

http://fongunlimited.com/genmay/project.gif
this is the project setting, as you can see it all conforms to the standard.

((Cool))

http://fongunlimited.com/genmay/surround.gif
i want audio coming from the CENTER ONLY (my source footage is in 16-bit stereo (i used xl1s)) no matter what happens. this is the only setting where it works. i've tried the others but there's always left and right speaker leakage.

((Constant power on all channels is ok.. ))

http://fongunlimited.com/genmay/centeronly.gif
as you can see from the mixer only the center channel is on when i played it back.
((ok))

http://fongunlimited.com/genmay/dialoguebox.gif
so i'm now saving as a simple 5.1 .ac3 file. it SHOULD be DVD-compliant. like i've written i can use powerDVD to playback this .ac3 file and it has 5.1, no problem. CENTER ONLY no leakage to either left nor right speakers.

((U can save as 1.0 if its just mono... it will still be DD compliant))

http://fongunlimited.com/genmay/setaudio.gif
under DVD-Architect 2.0, i've set the audio to the .ac3 file. when i preview it, there is only sound coming from LEFT and RIGHT but NO CENTER! what the heck? does DVD-Architect not have 5.1 preview support? i could find it the preferences of DVD-Architect.

((THIS IS DUE TO THE FACT THAT ARCHITECT DOESNT DECODE DD Audio Data. you will only get a stereo output, with ur soundcards surround compensation emulating the surround channels.
Ignore this as DVDA audio should only be used as a reference not as a production tool.))

http://fongunlimited.com/genmay/optimize.gif
this is the problem here. as you can DVD-ARchitect thinks that my file is NOT compliant, i CANNOT select NO recompression. it MUST recompress. once it recompresses it defaults to 448k 5.1. in playback i can only listen to sounds coming from left and right channels, NOTHING in the center channel. should i use another DVD-authoring program?

((Im gettin this error too, but not only with audio, with video as well. I think its got to do with the "auto optimise" facility whereby it wants to rebuild the files.
I honestly cant tell u, but until this issue is resolved, Im steering clear of DVDA2))

furthermore i've been able to import .vob files into DVD-Architect but when i hit preview, no audio.

((Thats normal.. same thing happens when u import a VOB into Vegas.))

when i prepare the DVD, it recompresses the audio portion EVEN THOUGH .vob already has DVD-compliant ac3!

((YUP.. this sux.. ))

then i lose audio in the prepared folder for DVD burning. this is sooo weird. what am i doing wrong here? or is everyone experiencing the same thing?

((I am.. but i think they forgot to allow the manual facilities to function in DVDA2. Dont get me wrong its a good program, but these bugs MUST be fixed.. Im really sick of SONicfoundrY fluffin about with DVDA...

No ur not the only one feeling this problem..

[Yi Fong Yu]

so i ask again... who here has authored a project in "TRUE" 5.1 and specifically burned it in 5.1 and with what program. i'm thinking DVD-Lab or Adobe's Encode? what do you think? advise please? DVD-Architect is good if you're burning ac-3 stereo (192k) but for true 5.1 manipulation it is totally and helplessly broken.

yesh i understand about my card, in fact it can do 192k-24bit. so... i'm set there =).

the reason i chose 5.1 surround in dialogue box is because i didn't want to be 'non-compliant'. and i do know that i can choose dolby 1.0 mono.

rob lohman or chris you guys know about this bug, we should forward it to sony.

[Peter Sieben]

Hi guys,

I did some testing today. Below my results.

I used a stereo dialog audio file (16 bit/44 khz) inside a Vegas 5 project, with a 5.1 project setup. In the audiotrack panning window I muted all speakers, except for the centre speaker. Monitoring in Vegas 5 using the discrete outputs of the M-Audio Delta-410 soundcard to a NAD surround amplifier learnt that all channels were quiet except for the centre channel.

I rendered this small portion of audio to a:
1) 5.1 AC3 file using the 5.1 DVD template;
2) 5.1 AC3 file using my "own" 5.1 DVD tempate (not using compression and without any indication of Room effect etc)
3) 2.0 AC3 file using the Stereo DVD template;
4) 1.0 AC3 file using a modified 5.1 DVD template.

I uploaded all these files into DVD Architect version 1 and made a dvd of it. In the Optimize window, I had to change 1 and 2 to a 5.1 AC3 file and it didn't need any re-compression afterwards.
2 was changed to a Stereo AC3 file and it did not needed re-compression after doing that.
Only 4 still gave a warning that DVD-A still wanted to re-compress it, no matter which setting I gave it. It's logical within the DVD-A v1 structure, as it hasn't got any defaults for a 1.0 AC3 file, even when I created the 1.0 AC3 file from the standard 5.1 DVD template before rendering.

I checked the dvd on my high end Sony (ES) setup in the living room. All audio files have a 'bleeding' effect on the L + R speakers. What I discovered was when I changed the settings of my surround amplifier. My Sony has a kind of cinema/effect setup with an effect % you enter in the setup. After I changed this % to zero, the bleeding effect almost disappeared. I had to put my ear on my speakers to hear it softly. To my opinion, it's very acceptable as the centre speaker audio (the voice) is very clear and bright.

Together with the voice track, I did a second test. I used a stereo track of music and panned it around all 6 speakers in a 5.1 setup in Vegas 5. Everytime the sound jumped to the next speaker, all other speakers became muted in the panning window. I checked the dvd results the same way as described above. When the music was played on one of the background speakers, there was not any bleeding on the L + R front speakers, they were silent. But when the sound entered the front/centre speakers, the bleeding started again.

So far I can tell (and that could be logical in a way) that the way the front plus centre speakers are related to eachother in the encoding process, is not so strictly as we suggest they would be. Hearing the centre speaker dialog only over the centre speaker would make the audio to clinical, I think but I can't tell if that's already compensated by default in the Dolby encoding protocol. You hear it often in movie dvd's that the voices are also softly audible over the L + R front speakers.
So far I know, to get a license for selling your own DD encoder, Dolby must have done some check before Sonic Foundry was licensed to do so.

I haven't tested any re-rendering in DVD-A v2, I'm still inside the Vegas 5 and DVD-A v1 combo. I like the simplicity of DVD-A v1 and when I opened v2 I was overwelmed by the huge amount of settings and info. It almost scared off....

Hope this test info is of any help. I'm into 5.1 encoding with Vegas and am happy with the quality of the results I get with my movie projects. Just like my viewers ;-)

Best regards,
Peter

[Yi Fong Yu]

peter, i've been having my problem since v1. and plus v2 isn't all that different from v1. it's very similar.

can do screencaps of your settings like i have done with mine? or is it essentially the same?

did you render the 5.1 as part of the mpeg2 file or as its own .ac3 file?

i have done virtually the same test as you and for ALL settings 1 through 4 i have had to recompress in version 1 AND 2. i have no idea what the problem is. you have any clue? i shouldn't think it's the audio card cause it's only for previewing. i have rendered the audio file as both separate .ac3 file and part of the mpeg2. i have had NO SUCCESS in isolating music OR dialogue to ANY channel. after DVD-arch is through with it, i ONLY get left and right channel and NO center-only nor surround fx. it hasn't been my hardware/software config it's all been working perfectly except for this problem.

plus how come peter jefferson can duplicate that problem but you seem to be fine with it? diff sound card? could it really be the sound card? and also pteer sieben, what happens when you preview in dvd-architect, do you get any sound at all?

your help is greatly appreciated.

[Peter Sieben]

I've uploaded a ZIP file (www.integrim.nl/ac3.zip), that contains the screen captures of my settings in a Word document, and also the AC3 5.1 testfile with the voice. The settings were pretty standard. I didnn't enclose the render settings in Vegas, as I used the standard 5.1 template and that worked.

I didn't render part of a MPEG2 file. I only rendered AC3 audio tracks that were inserted in a standard DVD-A menu for playback. When DVD-A is building up it's image file, you'll see that it creates a black videotrack as I think it needs this as a tv background when an audiofile is played back on your dvd-player.

Previewing is difficult on my pc setup. Before rendering in Vegas I can do discrete 5.1 monitoring via the M-Audio card. After rendering, I can't playback the AC3 audio as I did not have connected the digital output of the M-Audio to the NAD amplifier. Playback on my computer is done via my old Santa Cruz soundcard, that is digitally connected to a 4.1 setup speakerset. This set plays the centre speaker on my L+R speakers!! So I had to burn a dvd to test it in the livingroom with a normal dvd-player and surround amplifier.

Have you done a test of the post-DVDA rendered audio on another system, like a cinema homesetup in the livingroom? This is the best test you can do. Or are you 100% sure that your sound card is doing a perfect playback on your pc? (For a long time I tried to do it all with the Santa Cruz sound card and the 4.1 pc-speaker set up but gave up in the end as it was too much hassle).

I would suggest four steps:
- check your audio files on your cinema home set;
- make sure when doing playback on your pc of homecinema set, that any audio effect in the surround amplifier is turned off as this was causing extra bleeding during my playback tests;
- change the Vegas project bit depth to 16 bit, and test with that;
- have you asked this problem to the Sony support staff? There are a couple of AC3 specialists among them. I remember a long discussion on their forum about the implementation of the Dolby encoding, which resulted in updating the protocol in Vegas 4 version b or c.

Peter

[Yi Fong Yu]

thx peter for your time and help. i will take a look at those files tonight when i get back. i have a feeling they won't work... but we shall see.

but meanwhile, to address the issues you brought up. yesh i have played it back in my regular home system but same results, no center dialogue, only left+right. no surrounds.

is the DD standard 16-bit? i thought it was able to handle 24-bit? is it too high? this could very possibly be the non-compliant issue. ah... this could be it... when i get home i'll definitely try this again. i had 'high hopes' for 'hi fi'. i know most people can't tell and since my xl1s can only record 16-bit... but i wanted to experiement with creating 5.1 in the highest quality and since my m-audio card is capable of recording 192k-24-bit i wanted to play around with it... ah well... 2bad i'm limited by the medium. *sigh*. thx for your help i may have found my problem.

[Peter Sieben]

You're welcome. Keep us informed about your results.
I'm not sure about the 16 bit issue, it's just something that occured to me as a difference in the project settings.

Peter

[Yi Fong Yu]

HI GUYS!!! i wanna thank Peter S. for finally resolving my issue!!! with either DVD-Arch1 or 2, Dolby Digital accepts ONLY 16-bit for 5.1. i never knew that... wow that is incredible! =^). THANK ALL OF YOUR FOR YOUR HELP!!! =^). i know i'm kinda retarded sometime (blinded by the need to have the max setting on everything. shouldn's this be a sticky or a reference or somn) =).

PS but now, how WOULD you try to put a mono commentary track on there? DVD-ARchitect keeps recompressing anything that's totally out of spec? do ya have to use another software? ac-3 stereo and 5.1 as only two options are pretty limiting imho.

[Peter Sieben]

Glad to hear that the mystery is solved.

Regarding your mono files: to my opinion it's a theoretical problem, now we know you can get a good sounding 5.1 encoded file with a mono sound coming from the centre speaker (with a very little bleeding effect). Perhaps asking Sony would give them an update on the encoder in the future.

Happy mixing in surround,

Peter

[Yi Fong Yu]

peter, in open range DVD kev costner's director commentary is center channel ONLY without ANY bleeding into the main l+r. it is listed as dolby 1.0 96k.

[Peter Sieben]

Well..... that's always the case with Kevin Costner. Hero's don't bleed, don't they?

I'm sure they've used another encoder (hardware?) and pro-studio equipment. Can't tell you anything about that.

How's your surround mixing progressing?

Regards,
Peter

[Yi Fong Yu]

i was finished the moment i could burn a DVD with sound coming from ONLY the center channel =). i wish i could have used the dolby 1.0 96k mono (that could've saved a lot of space). i wonder if tools like that will ever appear for us prosumers...

thx for asking! =^).