Maximizing HD to SD Quality

Jeff Kellam · August 25th, 2009, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Peterson

Still don't have an answer to what to do with progressive footage shot at 1080/30p from an EX1.
John

Slightly OT - but applies

John:

I have been shooting mostly in 1920X1080P30. It does seem to make as good of SD widescreen as any other format when you figure out your workflow. I still go with a single NLE render (Vegas) and keep it simple.

What I am wondering is if we shouldn't all just start shooting the dreaded interlaced (1920X1080i60) if we are not shooting 24P? 24P is the only native HD and SD progressive format.

We are all rendering back to interlaced anyway, and Blu-Ray does not even support 30P so you have to render to 60i interlaced for that too. I am starting to wonder what the purpose of 30P is since there is no native 30P playback.

Perrone Ford · August 25th, 2009, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Peterson

Still don't have an answer to what to do with progressive footage shot at 1080/30p from an EX1.

What do you mean? What you "do with it" is totally dependent on how you will deliver. Web, DVD, BluRay... all demand something different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Peterson

1. Render out an intermediate avi lossless file at 1920 x 1080 using which template for the Lagarith or Huffy UV?

Make a template. 1080p, PCM 16bit/48khz audio (or whatever your camera shot) Huffyuv or Lagarith codec. Done. Simple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Peterson

2. Resize in VD at 720 x 405?? or change to 480? Use a lossless codec. Interlaced?? Where is Progressive in VD? What do I do with progressive footage in VD?

720x405. Interlaced? Why? You shot progressive. Let it stay progressive. VD is expecting progressive and likes it. Leave it alone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Peterson

3. Load resized avi into vegas and render to an Mpeg 2 for DVDA as what? Interlaced, Progressive?

NTSC 60i Widescreen. It's a pre-built template. Use it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Peterson

4. Field order problems?

None if you keep everything progressive until you build the mpeg2 for the DVD. Don't over complicate things.

Set your template in DVDA to NTSC widescreen 720x480 and you're golden.

I just did this workflow on my editing machine as a test. Rendered a one second 1080/30p with Lagarith from Vegas, all the way through DVDA. Works fine.

Perrone Ford · August 25th, 2009, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Kellam

What I am wondering is if we shouldn't all just start shooting the dreaded interlaced (1920X1080i60) if we are not shooting 24P?

Good gracious why? If you plan to deliver for broadcast (over the air or on optical) then yes, shoot 24p or 60i. Otherwise, shoot what you want.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Kellam

We are all rendering back to interlaced anyway

No, we are not all rendering back to interlaced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Kellam

I am starting to wonder what the purpose of 30P is since there is no native 30P playback.

I don't typically shoot 30p, but if I have significant motion, and I am delivering for non-broadcast, then 30p becomes viable. I typically shoot 24p or 60p though.

Jim Snow · August 25th, 2009, 02:20 PM

Jeff, arbitrarily converting to or from interlaced to progressive is a "nasty" thing to do. The temporal shift with interlaced fields is a problem when converting to progressive from interlaced or vice versa. With 60i versus 30P, the time between interlaced fields causes a blurring of edges if there is any motion in the video when converting from 60i to 30P because each field was recorded at a different moment in time. The blurring is because when the fields are converted to progressive. the interlaced fields are forced to be displayed at the same time even thought one of the source fields was not shot at the same moment in time as the other field. As a result, moving subjects are not at the same place in each field. To force each field to be displayed at the same moment in time makes them blurry on the edges when there is motion.

There are reasons that it may be appropriate to convert from interlaced to progressive such as preparing a video for display on a computer screen or online. But "improving" the quality of the video is NOT one of the reasons to convert - - most especially if the video is to be played on an interlaced TV. There are bad ways and fair ways to convert from interlaced to progressive; there aren't any "good" ways. The bad way just combines the fields and does nothing to reduce the motion edge blur. The fair way to do something, such as throwing away one of the fields and doubling the other to preserve the aspect ratio, cuts the vertical resolution in half but with this approach there is no edge blurring when there is motion. The loss of vertical resolution might not be important when the end format doesn't need the resolution such as web page videos. Just keep in mind that your vertical resolution is cut in half with this method.

When 30P is displayed on an interlaced TV screen, there is noticeable judder when there in motion. I personally don't care for the judder look. Others like it because they think it is more "film-like". But to me it is distracting to see a video with blurry edges that judders. Why not also put projector noise on the audio track and call it film-like audio!?

Eugene Kosarovich · August 25th, 2009, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Kellam

We are all rendering back to interlaced anyway, and Blu-Ray does not even support 30P so you have to render to 60i interlaced for that too. I am starting to wonder what the purpose of 30P is since there is no native 30P playback.

For the look of 30p, that's why.

If you shoot it 30p and have to put it to Blu-ray as 60i, that's not changing the fact that it was shot 30p and will have the look of 30p.

And yes, without question it will look better on a LCD instead of a CRT, and that's the way the world is going anyway.

I don't like the judder of 24p for what I do, but 30p, that I do like. It's all a matter of your own style that you want for your video.

John Peterson · August 25th, 2009, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

What do you mean? What you "do with it" is totally dependent on how you will deliver. Web, DVD, BluRay... all demand something different.

SD DVD that looks good on a CRT television as well as an HDTV. That is where I am having all the problems. HDTV video looks good. CRT always looks bad with ghostly outlines on people and objects and aliasing especially when anything moves. Twitter is worse than footage shot on an SD cam.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

Make a template. 1080p, PCM 16bit/48khz audio (or whatever your camera shot) Huffyuv or Lagarith codec. Done. Simple.

OK - got it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

720x405. Interlaced? Why? You shot progressive. Let it stay progressive. VD is expecting progressive and likes it. Leave it alone.

Didn't know that.

In terms of 405, it defaults to 405 and not 480. Some here are rendering to that. Are you are saying I should change it to 480 or leave it at 405?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

NTSC 60i Widescreen. It's a pre-built template. Use it.
None if you keep everything progressive until you build the mpeg2 for the DVD. Don't over complicate things.

Set your template in DVDA to NTSC widescreen 720x480 and you're golden.

I just did this workflow on my editing machine as a test. Rendered a one second 1080/30p with Lagarith from Vegas, all the way through DVDA. Works fine.

On a CRT TV? Maybe there is something wrong with my camera.

John

Perrone Ford · August 25th, 2009, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Peterson

SD DVD that looks good on a CRT television as well as an HDTV. That is where I am having all the problems. HDTV video looks good. CRT always looks bad with ghostly outlines on people and objects and aliasing especially when anything moves. Twitter is worse than footage shot on an SD cam.

I think the issue lies in your camera setup, not your workflow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Peterson

In terms of 405, it defaults to 405 and not 480. Some here are rendering to that. Are you are saying I should change it to 480 or leave it at 405?

Leave it at 405. It will letterbox itself when it gets rendered to Mpeg2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Peterson

On a CRT TV? Maybe there is something wrong with my camera.

I have a CRT TV in my editing suite. I hve a CRT TV at home. I have to drop stuff on my laptop and take it to my preview room to see it on a plasma or LCD. I think the issue you are having is you are using detail enhancement in the camera. Grab one of the excellent camera setups from the sticky section in the EX1 section on this webpage. That should fix it.

John Peterson · August 26th, 2009, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

I think the issue lies in your camera setup, not your workflow.

Leave it at 405. It will letterbox itself when it gets rendered to Mpeg2.

I have a CRT TV in my editing suite. I hve a CRT TV at home. I have to drop stuff on my laptop and take it to my preview room to see it on a plasma or LCD. I think the issue you are having is you are using detail enhancement in the camera. Grab one of the excellent camera setups from the sticky section in the EX1 section on this webpage. That should fix it.

Thanks for the help Perrone. Really appreciate it.

John

John Peterson · August 26th, 2009, 12:18 PM

Perrone (or anyone else who would help me).

Here is a sample of an SD Mpeg clip for DVDA that was progressive all the way through. It will not display properly on a CRT without motion aliasing. The colored outline on the edges is visible as well. This was done as follows:

1. Load EX1 footage (1920 x 1080p/30) as mxf onto Vegas timeline. Match project properties to mxf files.
2. Render out Huffy UV to avi file.
3. Resize in VD using Lanczos 3 resize filter and Huffy UV compression to 720 x 405 progressive.
4. Bring avi back into Vegas and render as DVDA video stream (NOTE: Problems showed up on JVC CRT pro external monitor before I even rendered).

I tried disabling smart resampling as well.

http://vimeo.com/download/video:5644...933d2c00e25490

Vimeo said the download is available for a week.

There is no audio. Can someone burn this on a DVDRW with DVDA and try playing it on a CRT?

Thanks to anyone who can help me with this major problem.

Perrone Ford · August 26th, 2009, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Peterson

Perrone (or anyone else who would help me).

Here is a sample of an SD Mpeg clip for DVDA that was progressive all the way through. It will not display properly on a CRT without motion aliasing. The colored outline on the edges is visible as well. This was done as follows:

http://vimeo.com/download/video:5644...933d2c00e25490

It's private and says we can't download it.

John Peterson · August 26th, 2009, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

It's private and says we can't download it.

Do you have to sign in first? Not sure. Is there another place I can put the file that you know of?

John

Perrone Ford · August 26th, 2009, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Peterson

Do you have to sign in first? Not sure. Is there another place I can put the file that you know of?

John

I am signed in. Send me a link to just your profile on vimeo, and I'll download the file.

John Peterson · August 26th, 2009, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

I am signed in. Send me a link to just your profile on vimeo, and I'll download the file.

http://vimeo.com/6283645

I think this does it?

Log in and the download link is on the bottom right hand side of the page.

John

I had to change the privacy settings for some reason.

Perrone Ford · August 26th, 2009, 12:53 PM

Yea, I got it...

In camera sharpening is BRUTAL. You have GOT to turn that off. Otherwise there just isn't anything to be done in post short of a gaussian blur on the whole thing.

Use this setting:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/976293-post389.html

Except change Detail Setting from 0 to -20. That should solve what you're seeing here.

John Peterson · August 26th, 2009, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

Yea, I got it...

In camera sharpening is BRUTAL. You have GOT to turn that off. Otherwise there just isn't anything to be done in post short of a gaussian blur on the whole thing.

I added unsharp mask (medium strength) to the final output and I don't remember any in camera sharpening being set, but why all the aliasing if it is progressive all the way? There are pronounced horizontal interlacing lines on the video when displayed on a CRT.

John

I just checked. Picture profiles have been off since I bought the camera over a year ago. Doesn't that mean there is no "detail on"? Isn't that where the in camera sharpening would come from if it were turned on?

I will try those settings though. I guess the default settings for the camera produce this problem? Is that right? You must have a picture profile set in order to avoid aliasing in SD DVD even if it is progressive?

August 26th, 2009, 12:53 PM	#119
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 4,100	Yea, I got it... In camera sharpening is BRUTAL. You have GOT to turn that off. Otherwise there just isn't anything to be done in post short of a gaussian blur on the whole thing. Use this setting: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/976293-post389.html Except change Detail Setting from 0 to -20. That should solve what you're seeing here. __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.

August 25th, 2009, 02:20 PM	#109
Jim Snow Trustee Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Santa Clara, CA Posts: 1,104	Jeff, arbitrarily converting to or from interlaced to progressive is a "nasty" thing to do. The temporal shift with interlaced fields is a problem when converting to progressive from interlaced or vice versa. With 60i versus 30P, the time between interlaced fields causes a blurring of edges if there is any motion in the video when converting from 60i to 30P because each field was recorded at a different moment in time. The blurring is because when the fields are converted to progressive. the interlaced fields are forced to be displayed at the same time even thought one of the source fields was not shot at the same moment in time as the other field. As a result, moving subjects are not at the same place in each field. To force each field to be displayed at the same moment in time makes them blurry on the edges when there is motion. There are reasons that it may be appropriate to convert from interlaced to progressive such as preparing a video for display on a computer screen or online. But "improving" the quality of the video is NOT one of the reasons to convert - - most especially if the video is to be played on an interlaced TV. There are bad ways and fair ways to convert from interlaced to progressive; there aren't any "good" ways. The bad way just combines the fields and does nothing to reduce the motion edge blur. The fair way to do something, such as throwing away one of the fields and doubling the other to preserve the aspect ratio, cuts the vertical resolution in half but with this approach there is no edge blurring when there is motion. The loss of vertical resolution might not be important when the end format doesn't need the resolution such as web page videos. Just keep in mind that your vertical resolution is cut in half with this method. When 30P is displayed on an interlaced TV screen, there is noticeable judder when there in motion. I personally don't care for the judder look. Others like it because they think it is more "film-like". But to me it is distracting to see a video with blurry edges that judders. Why not also put projector noise on the audio track and call it film-like audio!?

August 26th, 2009, 12:18 PM	#114
John Peterson Major Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Monroe, NY Posts: 703	Perrone (or anyone else who would help me). Here is a sample of an SD Mpeg clip for DVDA that was progressive all the way through. It will not display properly on a CRT without motion aliasing. The colored outline on the edges is visible as well. This was done as follows: 1. Load EX1 footage (1920 x 1080p/30) as mxf onto Vegas timeline. Match project properties to mxf files. 2. Render out Huffy UV to avi file. 3. Resize in VD using Lanczos 3 resize filter and Huffy UV compression to 720 x 405 progressive. 4. Bring avi back into Vegas and render as DVDA video stream (NOTE: Problems showed up on JVC CRT pro external monitor before I even rendered). I tried disabling smart resampling as well. http://vimeo.com/download/video:5644...933d2c00e25490 Vimeo said the download is available for a week. There is no audio. Can someone burn this on a DVDRW with DVDA and try playing it on a CRT? Thanks to anyone who can help me with this major problem.