Maximizing HD to SD Quality

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by John Peterson

Perrone,

Are you shooting 1080/30p with your EX1 and creating interlaced SD DVDs from that or are you shooting 1080/60i?

Thanks,

John

I don't generally have to create DVDs from stuff I shoot. Occasionally, but not often. The last DVD project I shot, I did create 60i DVDs from 1080p/30 though. Generally, my delivery is for the web, and I shoot 24p. I shot 720/60p for a project last month but that was not DVD delivery.

[Chris Harding]

Hi Guys

Just for interest I'm shooting in AVCHD 1920x1080i and due to a lack of CPU power I am currently transcoding to a variety of formats to see what works best. I have tried a variety of codecs to AVI and also the little package called Upshift which transcodes to a 50mbs M2t file.
In Vegas, rendering all the different footages to a standard PAL Widescreen Mpeg2 I must admit that it was hard to tell the difference but the M2t transcoded file had a definate edge!!
I don't use DVA as an authoring program but rather use DVDLab and the end result is pretty good and more importantly the workflow is almost as quick as SD!!!

Chris

[Jeff Kellam]

Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy

Following Perrone's basic workflow, I tried a bit of footage and am quite impressed with the results.
I rendered the same clean (no effects etc) 1440*1080i clip from Vegas using:
a) Main Concept DVD Architect PAL Widescreen Video Stream template
b) Cineform Neo Scene Codec at 1440*1080 (.avi)

Imported the Cineform file into Virtual Dub. Applied the resize filter (720*576 PAL) using the Lanczos3 filter mode - rendered back out of Virtual Dub using the same Cineform codec.

Imported both the Main Concept and Cineform/Virtual Dub files into a Vegas Pal Widescreen project and took these two frame grabs. I'm very impressed with the overall sharper image - and there is more detail.

Sweet!

Dennis:

There is quite a bit of gridding in the virtual dub image. Im not sure if that would be usable for me. The good thing is that there is not much moire effect.

[Harry Simpson]

I'm learning here so be kind. I shoot a 5D MK2 with RODE mic which produces .MOV - then convert the MOV to Cineform 720 AVIs.....which feom reading the thread is lossy :-(

Any how i edit with Sony Vegas Studio 9 PE....to MP4

I'd like to produce a great looking DVD that can be played in a regular DVD player since most folks don't have BluRay players yet.....could someone point me to the thread that tells me the best way to do that...

The DVD Architect (from Vegas9 export) produced a totally crappy donversion that wasn't watchable....Do i need to be rendering to MP2?

Please be kind and point me to the correct thread.....

TIA
Harry

[Perrone Ford]

Help us understand what you're doing?

You start with a native .MOV file.

You convert that to Cineform (why?)

You convert that to MP4 (why?)

You put the .MP4 files into DVDA and convert to .MPG for DVDs.


At what step in this workflow do you go from HD to SD? Why are you converting your file so many times?

[Dennis Murphy]

Originally Posted by Jeff Kellam

Dennis:

There is quite a bit of gridding in the virtual dub image. Im not sure if that would be usable for me. The good thing is that there is not much moire effect.

I should point out that the images that I provided were a small section of the SD screen grab blown up - I picked the bit with the girl's hair that was backlit by the sun to show the finest detail part of the grab - so don't judge the images as an actual whole SD frame.

[Harry Simpson]

<<Help us understand what you're doing?>>
<<You start with a native .MOV file
<<You convert that to Cineform (why?).>>
Because the avi produced makes editing on a PC running Vegas smoother

<<You convert that to MP4 (why?)>>
I had been producing WMVs and uploading to Vimeo, YouTube and SmugMug and these all prefer to convert from MP4s

<<At what step in this workflow do you go from HD to SD?>>
Still trying to figure that out - I did the ol Vegas export to DVD Architect and it burned to DVD which i tried to place into a player for my HDTV and though i realized it would not be HD it looked terrible.

Why are you converting your file so many times?
Convert ftom MOV to AVI for editing (Cineform allows smooth playback in editor)
Render edited AVI to MP4 final file (720 not 1080)

I went to MP4 cause one person said they could not get SmugMug uploaded video to play period (that turned out to be a bug on SmugMugs part)

I would like to be able to produce a DVD that looked good for playback on most DVD players just as an alternative means of distribution. Write now I must just load the MP4s onto a DVD data disk and simply ask user to copy to their hard drive and play in VLC.

So the MP4 was to get the most quality in the smallest size for web and compter viewing.

Now if i want to produce the best quality to burn to a DVD for playback in a standard entertainment system i don't mind extra work i just need the knowledge to do so. The thread here is super though over my head at times....Thanks!!

Harry

[Perrone Ford]

Ok, I see where you're at.

Workflow should look like this:

1. Convert to Cineform
2. Finish editing
3. Produce MP4 for uploads
4. Bring Cineform file into Virtualdub and resize with Lanczos scaler.
5. Export Lagarith or HuffYUV compressed AVI
6. Bring avi from step 5 into DVDA and make your disk.

Alternately, you could bring the avi back into Vegas (or tmpenc) and cut your mpeg2 for DVD there along with separate audio. Either method will work.

[Harry Simpson]

Thanks this is great info.

So the mp4 is just as good as the MP2 for DVD creation? Is the MP2 always keep the audio seperate then.

DVDA is DVD Architect i assume....I need to ramp up on using it too - usually just have one video clip to burn so don't need all the chapters etc......

Thanks - i'll try this this afternoon.

Harry

[Jamie Bird]

Excellent thread - useful advise.

Would any of the discussion so far relate to converting 1080i to 720p - for example to convert footage shot on a Canon XHA1 1080 25f over to 720p ?

[Harry Simpson]

Couple of clarifications please...

1. Convert to Cineform
2. Finish editing
3. Produce MP4 for uploads (good til here)
4. Bring Cineform file into Virtualdub and resize with Lanczos scaler. (the Cineform file is pre edited avi. Don't i need work with my completed edited version but it's in MP4 - Can i bring the MP4 into Virtualdub?)
5. Export Lagarith or HuffYUV compressed AVI
6. Bring avi from step 5 into DVDA and make your disk.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Harry Simpson

So the mp4 is just as good as the MP2 for DVD creation? Is the MP2 always keep the audio seperate then.

No. MP4 is NOT a valid type for creating DVDs. ONLY Mpeg2 is. So if you bring an Mpeg4 file into your DVD authoring program, it will convert it on the spot to Mpeg2, thus causing further loss of quality.

Originally Posted by Harry Simpson

DVDA is DVD Architect i assume....I need to ramp up on using it too - usually just have one video clip to burn so don't need all the chapters etc......

Yes DVDA is DVD Architect. If you open that application, choose New > Single Movie. It will let you select a video and audio file. It will not create a menu or separate chapters. It just makes a simple DVD that auto-plays when inserted into a DVD player.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Harry Simpson

Couple of clarifications please...

4. Bring Cineform file into Virtualdub and resize with Lanczos scaler. (the Cineform file is pre edited avi. Don't i need work with my completed edited version but it's in MP4 - Can i bring the MP4 into Virtualdub?)

Virtualdub ONLY understand .avi files (and a couple specialized files with some hacks) so you will need to create an .avi master to bring into virtualdub. This should be done with a lossless .avi codec like Lagarith, HuffYUV, or uncompressed. Cineform is also a legal type to bring into Virtualdub, but it is not lossless.

[Harry Simpson]

Perrone don't shoot me! I'm close to being dangerous with this new knowledge. Couple more questions then i promise i'll figure out the rest.

So what i have so far is this:
1. Convert 1080 .MOV into 720 .AVI (take the lossy hit)
2. Edit video, add titles, cross fades, credits, whatever - finish content of movie.
3. Render in Vegas Studio to ? (.AVI again?)
4. Bring finished rendered .AVI into Virtualdub and resize (what size?) with Lanczos scaler.
5. Within Virtualdub, export a Lagarith or HuffYUV compressed AVI
6. Bring that into DVDA and select single movie and it will automatically convert it to a MP2 for DVD burn.

What am i missing?

Thank you for your patience
Harry

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Harry Simpson

So what i have so far is this:
1. Convert 1080 .MOV into 720 .AVI (take the lossy hit)

Does not have to be lossy, but if you want Cineform on the timeline, then yes it's slightly lossy. There are ways around this, but it's beyond the scope of this thread, and has been discussed at length on this forum. Basically it's the offline/online editing workflow and is lossless while still giving speed on the timeline.

Originally Posted by Harry Simpson

2. Edit video, add titles, cross fades, credits, whatever - finish content of movie.

Correct

Originally Posted by Harry Simpson

3. Render in Vegas Studio to ? (.AVI again?)

Render to mpeg4 for your upload to smugmug, then render in HuffYUV or Lagarith lossless to import into VirtualDub.

Originally Posted by Harry Simpson

4. Bring finished rendered .AVI into Virtualdub and resize (what size?) with Lanczos scaler.

NTSC size is 720x480.

Originally Posted by Harry Simpson

5. Within Virtualdub, export a Lagarith or HuffYUV compressed AVI

Correct

Originally Posted by Harry Simpson

6. Bring that into DVDA and select single movie and it will automatically convert it to a MP2 for DVD burn.

Correct.