Maximizing HD to SD Quality

Brian Luce · March 17th, 2011, 04:13 AM

I just did my first test with TMPGEnc and the results for and HD to SD DVD are far superior to what I was getting with the standard Vegas MPEG2 Template+AC3 double render. Sharper, cleaner, brighter and fewer jaggies. Render times seem a lot faster than Virtual Dub. The TMPGEnc software is easy to use as well. Simple interface, and no double video/audio render as with Vegas. I don't even know if you can author from TMPGEnc, I'm just using DVDA for that. WIN.

Jim Snow · March 17th, 2011, 08:58 PM

It's a bit ironic. TMPEGEnc is a consumer level editor that just happens to have an amazingly good resizing function. Frankly it does a much better job of resizing than any of the 'Pro' editors. Seems backwards doesn't it? I never have understood why the Pro editor developers haven't dealt with this.

Jeff Harper · March 17th, 2011, 09:19 PM

Brian, I tried it last night, and it made me crazy. Which codec do I select, etc. There were other settings that I had no idea of how they would affect things, and I quit. Coming from HD link trial, I didn't like it, and the consumerish interface was a bit of a turn off.

On the other hand, I have footage piling up that I'll need to do something with, so I'll give it a go again soon. At $100, it is a bargain.

Part of the problem is just me...I'm stressed, and every little complication pisses me off right now; that can't be blamed on Tmpgenc.

Brian Luce · March 18th, 2011, 03:20 AM

Jeff, the interface is a bit consumerish, something like Premiere Elements where you click a tab that walks you through the process. I find it intuitive and easy. I'm not sure if I'm using it correctly because I haven't read the manual.
Here's what I've been doing with 1080p AVCHD files.
-From Vegas 10 render out a avi file with the Lagarith codec (also tried this with the 1080p hdv codec)
Set the audio in the Custom tab. I've been using WAV for audio.
-import to TMPGEnc which guides you through the encode process. I change the "Clip Settings" to progressive and 1:1 pixel.
-in Format set it to 16x9 and linear PCM for audio
-click encode
-take the TMP created avi and import it to DVDA and burn away.

Have no idea if this is the best method, but for sure it looks a lot better than staying in Vegas for your encode.

The software also has some sort of timeline based editing system, haven't played with that yet, not so impressive looking though.

Mark Howells · March 18th, 2011, 07:36 AM

Can I ask, which TMPGenc software is required for this encoding as there appears to be a number, all at different prices.
ie Video Mastering Works 5, Moviestyle, TMPGenc Plus 2.5, Authoring Works 4.

Jeff Harper · March 18th, 2011, 07:41 AM

Brian, giving an avi file to DVDA means it will have to re-encode the avi to convert it to mpeg 2...wouldn't you want to render out an mpeg 2 for DVDA? Or am I misunderstanding something here?

Garrett Low · March 18th, 2011, 07:57 AM

Jeff,

Get VirtualDub to resize. It's free and the steps are the same as what you'd have to go through with TMPGEnc:

1. Vegas edit then output HD AVI
2. Take HD AVI and convert using VDub (I typically use Lanczos3 algorithm) to SD AVI
3. Take SD AVI into Vegas to create DVD compliant mpg and AC3 files
4. Take SD mpg into DVDA to author DVD.

That way DVDA does not re-rendering of the edited material. The results I get are noticeably better than using Vegas to resize and are as good as TMPGEnc which I have tried. And as I mentioned, VirtualDub is free. I've used this work flow for footage from a variety of HD codec from HDV on up to XDCAM HD footage.

If I were using TMPGEnc I would just substitute it where I use VDub. The advantage you get with TMPGEnc over VDub is that you could do some editing in TMPGEnc. For me that does not justify the $100 expense.

-Garrett

Brian Luce · March 18th, 2011, 09:11 AM

Hi Garret, I agree VD is great, but somehow I'm getting better and faster results with TMP. I still use VD for the stabilizer.

Jeff Harper · March 18th, 2011, 09:20 AM

Garrett, thanks for the tip on Virtual Dub. I am familiar (vaquely) with it seemed a bit complicated to me when I tried it, and a bit slow.

I don't mind the $100 of tmpgenc. not that I have money to burn!

Steven Reid · March 18th, 2011, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

Garrett, thanks for the tip on Virtual Dub. I am familiar (vaquely) with it seemed a bit complicated to me when I tried it, and a bit slow.

I don't mind the $100 of tmpgenc. not that I have money to burn!

Jeff, Garrett's procedure is exactly my workflow, too, and I get stunning results on resizing HD-->SD avi files. If you're busy and stressed, then figure out VDub when you're not. It is actually quite simple to use, despite its appearance. Yes, many of the menus have a lot checkboxes and dropdowns, but so does Vegas, right? ;) I simply jumped in and let intuition take over.

As for speed, VDub actually tells you during renders how fast it is going. My source material is 24p, and on my overclocked Q9550 system, using the 64-bit version of VDub set to the fastest speed, I get ~30 fps renders on the resize. I dump the rendered avi's back into a Vegas project to then render MPEG-2 files for DVD and Blu-ray.

It's definitely not a one click operation from HD source footage in Vegas to DVD Architect-ready files, but the results are worth it!

-Steve

Jeff Harper · March 18th, 2011, 11:16 AM

Thanks for the encouragement Steven, I appreciate your outlining your workflow. I'lll come back to this soon.

Brian Luce · March 18th, 2011, 11:19 AM

Jeff, I'm not sure Lagarith is the best codec to use or not. So many codecs, so little time. But Lagarith was recommended for Virtual Dub so I'll stick with it. I also used HDV and that worked good too.Also tried HuffYUY but Vegas wouldn't see it, others have had the same issue with it.. It's lossless so I shouldn't be getting a generation loss. It makes some huge files, but I delete them after the project is finished.

Mark, I got the mastering suite. $99 but it shows up as $110 in your cart so you have to delete the CD disc to get it to $99.

Brian Luce · March 18th, 2011, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garrett Low

Jeff,

Get VirtualDub to resize. It's free and the steps are the same as what you'd have to go through with TMPGEnc:

1. Vegas edit then output HD AVI
2. Take HD AVI and convert using VDub (I typically use Lanczos3 algorithm) to SD AVI
3. Take SD AVI into Vegas to create DVD compliant mpg and AC3 files
4. Take SD mpg into DVDA to author DVD.

That way DVDA does not re-rendering of the edited material. The results I get are noticeably better than using Vegas to resize and are as good as TMPGEnc which I have tried. And as I mentioned, VirtualDub is free. I've used this work flow for footage from a variety of HD codec from HDV on up to XDCAM HD footage.

If I were using TMPGEnc I would just substitute it where I use VDub. The advantage you get with TMPGEnc over VDub is that you could do some editing in TMPGEnc. For me that does not justify the $100 expense.

-Garrett

Garret, is step 3 necessary? won't DVDA do that just as happily? I think you can from VD to DVDA. I think that's how I did it.

Garrett Low · March 18th, 2011, 12:42 PM

Brian,

You could pull the AVI into DVDA but then DVDA would transcode the mpg2 file using it's preset settings. In many cases that may not yield the best results. By taking it back into Vegas it gives me a few advantages. First I get better control over the settings for the encoding. I can decide to use variable two pass or constant bitrates. DVDA does not allow you to control that. Also, I find it easier to set chapter points in Vegas and tell the encoder to set an I-frame at each chapter point. That way it allows me to precisely choose where the chapter points are. If you set chapters in DVDA you are limited to hitting a beginning of the GOP which means your chapter point could be as much as 7 frames off. Sounds like nothing but it's a quarter of a second and sometimes that does make things seem weird if you catch a mid word.

I believe that you might be able to get a little better quality of mpg encoding from TMPGEnc if you really want to take time and tweak the settings. One of the things that TMPGEnc allows is for you to adjust the quantization matrix. Something that is better left to those who have a lot of experience but it is an option that is not available with Vegas' built in encoder.

Brian, to get back to your quality issue, what algorithm were you using when you use VD? The default is not Lanczos3. I believe it defaults to Bicubic. You might try to check that and see if you still see a difference. Also check to see that the resolution and PAR correct for the VD encoding so that Vegas is not resizing the video when you create your widescreen mpg file. If you're using the same algorithm and same compression codec, it should look the same.

-Garrett

Arunas Jocius · March 18th, 2011, 02:32 PM

Trying to resize 1440X1080 50i material into 720 X 540 50i (later to be used to make dvd) with TMPGenc. I have unchecked deinterlace options (Deinterlace mode - None) withing filters and only left resize filter active. Next step is Format in TMOGenc workflow where I select Lagarith codec and size 720 X540 again. There is no selection for deinterlacing here. And yet, I still get progressive output in result avi file... I can see that in file properties once I feed file back to Vegas. Whad do I do wrong??? I try to keep video interlaced during the whole project.

March 17th, 2011, 04:13 AM	#211
Brian Luce Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,290	Re: Maximizing HD to SD Quality I just did my first test with TMPGEnc and the results for and HD to SD DVD are far superior to what I was getting with the standard Vegas MPEG2 Template+AC3 double render. Sharper, cleaner, brighter and fewer jaggies. Render times seem a lot faster than Virtual Dub. The TMPGEnc software is easy to use as well. Simple interface, and no double video/audio render as with Vegas. I don't even know if you can author from TMPGEnc, I'm just using DVDA for that. WIN.

March 17th, 2011, 08:58 PM	#212
Jim Snow Trustee Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Santa Clara, CA Posts: 1,104	Re: Maximizing HD to SD Quality It's a bit ironic. TMPEGEnc is a consumer level editor that just happens to have an amazingly good resizing function. Frankly it does a much better job of resizing than any of the 'Pro' editors. Seems backwards doesn't it? I never have understood why the Pro editor developers haven't dealt with this.

March 17th, 2011, 09:19 PM	#213
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Maximizing HD to SD Quality Brian, I tried it last night, and it made me crazy. Which codec do I select, etc. There were other settings that I had no idea of how they would affect things, and I quit. Coming from HD link trial, I didn't like it, and the consumerish interface was a bit of a turn off. On the other hand, I have footage piling up that I'll need to do something with, so I'll give it a go again soon. At $100, it is a bargain. Part of the problem is just me...I'm stressed, and every little complication pisses me off right now; that can't be blamed on Tmpgenc. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

March 18th, 2011, 03:20 AM	#214
Brian Luce Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,290	Re: Maximizing HD to SD Quality Jeff, the interface is a bit consumerish, something like Premiere Elements where you click a tab that walks you through the process. I find it intuitive and easy. I'm not sure if I'm using it correctly because I haven't read the manual. Here's what I've been doing with 1080p AVCHD files. -From Vegas 10 render out a avi file with the Lagarith codec (also tried this with the 1080p hdv codec) Set the audio in the Custom tab. I've been using WAV for audio. -import to TMPGEnc which guides you through the encode process. I change the "Clip Settings" to progressive and 1:1 pixel. -in Format set it to 16x9 and linear PCM for audio -click encode -take the TMP created avi and import it to DVDA and burn away. Have no idea if this is the best method, but for sure it looks a lot better than staying in Vegas for your encode. The software also has some sort of timeline based editing system, haven't played with that yet, not so impressive looking though.

March 18th, 2011, 07:36 AM	#215
Mark Howells Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: UK Posts: 99	Re: Maximizing HD to SD Quality Can I ask, which TMPGenc software is required for this encoding as there appears to be a number, all at different prices. ie Video Mastering Works 5, Moviestyle, TMPGenc Plus 2.5, Authoring Works 4.

March 18th, 2011, 07:41 AM	#216
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Maximizing HD to SD Quality Brian, giving an avi file to DVDA means it will have to re-encode the avi to convert it to mpeg 2...wouldn't you want to render out an mpeg 2 for DVDA? Or am I misunderstanding something here? __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

March 18th, 2011, 07:57 AM	#217
Garrett Low Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Novato, CA Posts: 1,774	Re: Maximizing HD to SD Quality Jeff, Get VirtualDub to resize. It's free and the steps are the same as what you'd have to go through with TMPGEnc: 1. Vegas edit then output HD AVI 2. Take HD AVI and convert using VDub (I typically use Lanczos3 algorithm) to SD AVI 3. Take SD AVI into Vegas to create DVD compliant mpg and AC3 files 4. Take SD mpg into DVDA to author DVD. That way DVDA does not re-rendering of the edited material. The results I get are noticeably better than using Vegas to resize and are as good as TMPGEnc which I have tried. And as I mentioned, VirtualDub is free. I've used this work flow for footage from a variety of HD codec from HDV on up to XDCAM HD footage. If I were using TMPGEnc I would just substitute it where I use VDub. The advantage you get with TMPGEnc over VDub is that you could do some editing in TMPGEnc. For me that does not justify the $100 expense. -Garrett __________________ Garrett Low www.GLowMediaProductions.com

March 18th, 2011, 09:11 AM	#218
Brian Luce Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,290	Re: Maximizing HD to SD Quality Hi Garret, I agree VD is great, but somehow I'm getting better and faster results with TMP. I still use VD for the stabilizer.

March 18th, 2011, 09:20 AM	#219
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Maximizing HD to SD Quality Garrett, thanks for the tip on Virtual Dub. I am familiar (vaquely) with it seemed a bit complicated to me when I tried it, and a bit slow. I don't mind the $100 of tmpgenc. not that I have money to burn! __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

March 18th, 2011, 11:16 AM	#221
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Re: Maximizing HD to SD Quality Thanks for the encouragement Steven, I appreciate your outlining your workflow. I'lll come back to this soon. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described."

March 18th, 2011, 11:19 AM	#222
Brian Luce Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,290	Re: Maximizing HD to SD Quality Jeff, I'm not sure Lagarith is the best codec to use or not. So many codecs, so little time. But Lagarith was recommended for Virtual Dub so I'll stick with it. I also used HDV and that worked good too.Also tried HuffYUY but Vegas wouldn't see it, others have had the same issue with it.. It's lossless so I shouldn't be getting a generation loss. It makes some huge files, but I delete them after the project is finished. Mark, I got the mastering suite. $99 but it shows up as $110 in your cart so you have to delete the CD disc to get it to $99.

March 18th, 2011, 12:42 PM	#224
Garrett Low Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Novato, CA Posts: 1,774	Re: Maximizing HD to SD Quality Brian, You could pull the AVI into DVDA but then DVDA would transcode the mpg2 file using it's preset settings. In many cases that may not yield the best results. By taking it back into Vegas it gives me a few advantages. First I get better control over the settings for the encoding. I can decide to use variable two pass or constant bitrates. DVDA does not allow you to control that. Also, I find it easier to set chapter points in Vegas and tell the encoder to set an I-frame at each chapter point. That way it allows me to precisely choose where the chapter points are. If you set chapters in DVDA you are limited to hitting a beginning of the GOP which means your chapter point could be as much as 7 frames off. Sounds like nothing but it's a quarter of a second and sometimes that does make things seem weird if you catch a mid word. I believe that you might be able to get a little better quality of mpg encoding from TMPGEnc if you really want to take time and tweak the settings. One of the things that TMPGEnc allows is for you to adjust the quantization matrix. Something that is better left to those who have a lot of experience but it is an option that is not available with Vegas' built in encoder. Brian, to get back to your quality issue, what algorithm were you using when you use VD? The default is not Lanczos3. I believe it defaults to Bicubic. You might try to check that and see if you still see a difference. Also check to see that the resolution and PAR correct for the VD encoding so that Vegas is not resizing the video when you create your widescreen mpg file. If you're using the same algorithm and same compression codec, it should look the same. -Garrett __________________ Garrett Low www.GLowMediaProductions.com

March 18th, 2011, 02:32 PM	#225
Arunas Jocius Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 25	Re: Maximizing HD to SD Quality Trying to resize 1440X1080 50i material into 720 X 540 50i (later to be used to make dvd) with TMPGenc. I have unchecked deinterlace options (Deinterlace mode - None) withing filters and only left resize filter active. Next step is Format in TMOGenc workflow where I select Lagarith codec and size 720 X540 again. There is no selection for deinterlacing here. And yet, I still get progressive output in result avi file... I can see that in file properties once I feed file back to Vegas. Whad do I do wrong??? I try to keep video interlaced during the whole project.