Maximizing HD to SD Quality

[Seth Bloombaum]

Perhaps you haven't downloaded and installed the Lagarith codec?

[Troy Davis]

Thanks Seth. Thought it was part of Vdub.

[Jim Snow]

I use Virtualdub with the Lanczos 3 procedure described earlier in this thread with great results. I have a friend that uses FCP and Compressor on a Mac. He asked for a recommendation on resizing on his Mac. Is virtualdub available for the Mac? If not, are there good alternative resizing solutions?

[Arunas Jocius]

I have read this great thread and it gave me a good idea on how to move HD video material to DVD, but as usual, new beginner get's stuck somewhere along the way. I hope someone can help me through this journey. Here is my situation and questions.


Input

Video is shot with HDR – HC1E camera. It is European model, so video is in 1440 X 1080 (1,333 aspect ratio), 50i, PAL format.

Target

European SD DVD, playable on home DVD Players.

DVD format in Europe is PAL, 720 X 576 (1,25 aspect ratio) (not sure if there is a standard for interlaced/progressive image).

Watched on LCD or Plasma TV with full HD, 1920 X 1080 (1,777 aspect ratio). I understand LCD and Plasma are progressive (CRT is interlaced), but correct me if I am wrong. Not sure if 50 frames is of any importance here.

Procedure (based on this thread)
1. Capture with Cineform ConnectHD into avi file.
2. With Sony Vegas, render to smaller avi file using lossless Lagarith codec.
3. Using VirtualDub resize to 720 X 576, using Lanczos as a rescale codec.
4. With Sony Vegas render to MPEG2 using Mainconcept codec.
5. Render Audio to AC3 with Vegas

Software
Cineform ConnectHD
Sony Vegas Pro 10
VirtualDub 1.9.11
Lagarith codec 1.3.22
GSpot v 2.70a

Questions:
1. Do I want to keep video interlaced all the way, or do I need to think on deinterlacing. If I watch it on LCD and if it is progressive, should I leave that job to dvd player or would I be better off deinterlacing video material? Please don’t kill me on this if LCD’s actually are ok with interlaced material and there is no need to worry about it…
2. Aspect Ratio is different in source video, DVD standard and TV used to watch that video. My thinking is that changing aspect ratio will decrease video quality, but something needs to be done here. What route do I go? Should I resize in Virtual Dub into 720 X 540 to keep same aspect ratio as source? Or to 720 X 405 to keep same ratio as TV? If I do so, will DVD authoring software (DVD Architect) understand selected aspect ration and will not automatically resize back to 720 X 576 ???
3. Not sure what is the point on rendering original AVI file into smaller avi file in step 2. I understand that smaller files takes less space on HDD, but since we already captured video into larger avi, we have it on HDD and can pass to VirtualDub resizing and therefore safe time. Or am I missing something here?
4. Does Cineform ConnectHD do better capture than native Sony Vegas Pro capturing module?
5. If Cineform ConnectHD has valid reason to be used, it offers two options for capture: m2t or avi. Is there a difference which one to use?

Challenges along the way:
1. First challenge came while capturing… I have several options to choose and suggested file formats are m2t or avi. Many users talk about Cineform avi in this thread so I tried to capture into avi. Captured file was huge. 1 min 49 sec of capture ended up in 1 314 MB size avi file. I then try to drop captured file into vegas timeline and get error message “CFHD is not supported”… I then try to capture into Cineform intermediate and MPEG2-TS format. This creates two files: avi (same size as in first attempt) and m2t of 295 MB (4,5 times smaller!!!). Dropping onto Sony Vegas was not successful with avi again, but m2t file went fine into vegas timeline…

At this point I decided to ask for clarification, help as I am not sure where to go next. I attach few screenshots. One is for Cineform ConnectHD capture preferences (in case something else needs to be changed there). Other two show video properties of captured video stream into avi and m2t files. I got those properties by using free GSpot application.

[Ron Evans]

I would stay in HDV, edit as normal in a 1440x1080I project. Export a HDV file in the same format and then use TMPGenc V5 to encode for SD DVD with its preset. A lot easier and best downconvert and encode that I have experienced both for HDV and AVCHD. You could even use TMPGenc Authorworks and do the whole thing including authoring in the one program. I would normal do my video in Edius V6.02 where I would export a Canopus HQ file then use TMPGenc. Cineform would be another alternative but for one track of HDV it isn't worth going to an intermediate with modern PC's.

TMPGEnc - Products: TMPGEnc Video Mastering Works 5

TMPGEnc - Products: TMPGEnc Authoring Works 4

For Bluray just export from Vegas with the Bluray preset for authoring in DVDArchitect.

Ron Evans

[Brian Luce]

What's you reason for going from Cineform to Vegas? I'd either pick on or the other and then import to VD. Seems like that's an extra step and you risk a generation loss, and at the least, you're making work.
Also, does your Cineform software come with a down scaler? Cineform makes a good one.

[Arunas Jocius]

Originally Posted by Ron Evans

I would stay in HDV, edit as normal in a 1440x1080I project. Export a HDV file in the same format and then use TMPGenc V5 to encode for SD DVD with its preset. A lot easier and best downconvert and encode that I have experienced both for HDV and AVCHD. You could even use TMPGenc Authorworks and do the whole thing including authoring in the one program. I would normal do my video in Edius V6.02 where I would export a Canopus HQ file then use TMPGenc. Cineform would be another alternative but for one track of HDV it isn't worth going to an intermediate with modern PC's.

TMPGEnc - Products: TMPGEnc Video Mastering Works 5

TMPGEnc - Products: TMPGEnc Authoring Works 4

For Bluray just export from Vegas with the Bluray preset for authoring in DVDArchitect.

Ron Evans

Thank you Ron, I will try TMPGenc, but would be great to use the programs that I already have. Plus a new learning curve... I am a bit familiar with Vegas already and would like to do editing with this software. I didn't mention video editing above in my steps, since for test purposes I only straight convert 1 minute of video. Once I get algorythm, I will start working for longer video files and will do some editing, of course.

[Arunas Jocius]

Originally Posted by Brian Luce

What's you reason for going from Cineform to Vegas? I'd either pick on or the other and then import to VD. Seems like that's an extra step and you risk a generation loss, and at the least, you're making work.
Also, does your Cineform software come with a down scaler? Cineform makes a good one.

Well, after I understand the whole process and find out parameters I need to use in every step of my procedure, I will move one from my 1 minute test video file, to longer video files and need to edit them, before final reendering. I have used vegas few times and liked it, would like to use it for my future video editing. Cineform ConnectHD does only capturing, no editing.

you say you would pick one or another, but this is where I do not understand, why so many Vegas users mention "Cineform avi" as their source file. This was one of my questions above. Also m2t files seem like a lot smaller than avi file.

This thread repeats number of times, that best down scaler is VD with Lanzos, this is why I decided to try that route.

[Ron Evans]

A few years ago both PC's and the software were not powerful enough to decode and edit HDV ( in fact it goes back to DV originally) So intermediate formats like Cineform were introduced. Canopus used in Edius intent was the same. They trade off file size for CPU power. The load on the CPU is less but the files sizes are bigger since they in the main decode a long GOP file format to a format that encodes on a per frame basis. This is easier for the CPU to manipulate in an NLE but requires a greater hard disc throughput hence the adoption of RAID controllers to get a greater disc throughput.

Things have changed. CPU's are now a lot more powerful and the NLE decode algorithms have got fast enough to edit most files native.

I have both Vegas 10 and Edius V6 both will easily edit HDV and AVCHD native with no need for intermediate files.

On the Edius forum there were also lots of fans of the VD approach but the general opinion now is that TMPGenc is easier and better. In my tests I find TMPGenc easier and better on a number of accounts. The VDUb output tends to loose some detail and colour needing to come back into an NLE to apply some sharpening and colour boost. Neither is necessary with TMPGenc. I go straight from TMPGenc to authoring. TMPGenc uses Lanzos too

Ron Evans

[Arunas Jocius]

Thanks, this clarifies a lot. My PC is rather old (4-5 years), on the other hand, so I might try both options:direct NLE capture and editing or using Cineform intermediate.

Capturing with NLE seems straight forward. Select 1440 X 1080 50i project template (to be the same format as HDV on cassette, start capture. It will create number of m2t files. I can then do edit and once I have done with editing, I should be able to reender to avi file and then move on to TMPGenc?

I still have my questions 1 and 2 that are not clear in my head:
1. Do I want to keep video interlaced all the way, or do I need to think on deinterlacing. If I watch it on LCD and if it is progressive, should I leave that job to dvd player or would I be better off deinterlacing video material? Please don’t kill me on this if LCD’s actually are ok with interlaced material and there is no need to worry about it…
2. Aspect Ratio is different in source video, DVD standard and TV used to watch that video. My thinking is that changing aspect ratio will decrease video quality, but something needs to be done here. What route do I go? Should I resize in Virtual Dub into 720 X 540 to keep same aspect ratio as source? Or to 720 X 405 to keep same ratio as TV? If I do so, will DVD authoring software (DVD Architect) understand selected aspect ration and will not automatically resize back to 720 X 576 ???
3. .....................Got the answer to this question
4. .....................Got the answer to this question, understand it is the same quality of capture.
5. .....................Got the answer to this question

Going through Cineform ConnectHD created me some challenges, not sure why Vegas does not recognize avi file created by Cineform ConnectHD.

"Challenges along the way:
1. First challenge came while capturing… I have several options to choose and suggested file formats are m2t or avi. Many users talk about Cineform avi in this thread so I tried to capture into avi. Captured file was huge. 1 min 49 sec of capture ended up in 1 314 MB size avi file. I then try to drop captured file into vegas timeline and get error message “CFHD is not supported”… I then try to capture into Cineform intermediate and MPEG2-TS format. This creates two files: avi (same size as in first attempt) and m2t of 295 MB (4,5 times smaller!!!). Dropping onto Sony Vegas was not successful with avi again, but m2t file went fine into vegas timeline…"

[Ron Evans]

If you are capturing from HDV then capture native files which are m2t. These will then be a copy of the data on the tape with no conversion. Place on the timeline and see if your PC can edit native. If you can then do not bother with an intermediate file conversion. Leave interlace and do not bother with aspect ratio changes as the presets in TMPGenc will do all this for you. You can edit in HDV, export a HDV file and then encode in TMPGenc as a very easy way to try everything out. Once you have that sorted out then it may improve the quality to export a higher quality file from Vegas and there are several to choose from but all will create very large files and you may decide that it isn't worth it over a 2 pass high quality HDV export. Commercial DVD's are mainly interlace so what everyone sees on their TV is the result of the DVD player and LCD scaling and deinterlacing. The higher the quality of this scaling and deinterlacing the better the viewed picture.

Ron Evans

[Arunas Jocius]

thanks again, ready for testing, downloading TMPGenc trial.

[Jeff Harper]

Aruna, please report back, I haven't downloaded trial yet, I don't have time now to test it now, I'm focusing on selecting lenses right now, and editing my current projects.

[Jeremy Dallek]

Originally Posted by Robert M Wright

Use YV12 (both as output from Virtual Dub to the compressor and as the Lagarith compression mode) if you want to export 4:2:0 from Virtual Dub (DVD video is 4:2:0).

If the the designated format is DVD, how important is choosing YV12 here (vs YUY 4:2:2), rather than letting vegas do this when rendering the mpeg2 stream? Thanks!!

[Randall Leong]

Originally Posted by Robert M Wright

To export 4:2:2 YUV encoded with Lagarith, you need to tell VirtualDub to export YUY2 to the compressor and set Lagarith to encode as YUY2 (defaults for both are RGB).

To set VirtualDub to outputting YUY2: From "Video" on the menu bar, select "Color Depth..." and under "Output format to compressor/display", select "4:2:2 YCbCr (YUY2)".

To set Lagarith to encoding as YUY2: From "Video" on the menu bar, select "Compression..." then select "Lagarith lossless codec" then click the "Configure" button, and under mode select "YUY2".

Use YV12 (both as output from Virtual Dub to the compressor and as the Lagarith compression mode) if you want to export 4:2:0 from Virtual Dub (DVD video is 4:2:0).

True if you are using a direct encoder to make the final output. However, if the lossless file is to be imported back into an NLE that natively works only in RGB, then leave that as RGB.

Originally Posted by Jeremy Dallek

If the the designated format is DVD, how important is choosing YV12 here (vs YUY 4:2:2), rather than letting vegas do this when rendering the mpeg2 stream? Thanks!!

Like I stated above, Vegas and most other NLEs work natively in RGB. YV12 gets converted to RGB in the NLE itself and then re-converted back to YV12 during the re-encoding to MPEG-2. You want to avoid multiple re-conversions, in this case.