Maximizing HD to SD Quality

[Perrone Ford]

If you are using TMpegEnc, then you don't go back into Vegas...

And the down-res is not being done by the codec, but internally in the NLE. The difference between the two is measurable, but may not be discernible in some cases. A lot of it is down to the material in the picture, and the camera it was shot with. If the initial camera cannot resolve detail to a level where this matters, then there is no point doing it this way. But if you are shooting with a higher end camera, the difference really does become noticeable.

Workflow:

Original > Cineform > Vegas (lagarith) > VDub (Lagarith) > TMPGenc

Originally Posted by Roy Niswanger

Where I'm somewhat confused is why I would bring the downscale avi from VDub back into Vegas? I'll be using TMPGenc DVD Author and it should be able to take that avi from VDub and the ac3 and convert to DVD just fine (I think?). Would Vegas do a better job?

I'll be doing some moving forward tomorrow and post any questions and screen shots if necessary.

****hold on, wait a minute...it seems i'm all screwed up in the flow then...so after the cineform convertion from 5D .mov to avi I open it in VDub next or Vegas? After re-reading your last post the flow doesn't work if I open in in Vegas-Edit-then render into ????-then open in VDub-then bring back into Vegas-then render mpeg2-then create with Tmpgenc...it seems it would only work if I open it into VDub and downsize it first right?

Also, now that I installed Lagarith codec, what would the difference be in downsizing avi in Vegas, per these render settings using Lagarith VS. VDub downsizing using Lagarith?

http://www.motleypixel.com/public/po...s_downsize.jpg

Thanks again!
Roy

[Roy Niswanger]

Alright,

After Cineform here's my Vegas work:

Vegas file properties of the Cineform 5D avi:
http://www.motleypixel.com/public/po...properties.jpg

Render-As Default avi uncompressed:
http://www.motleypixel.com/public/posts/renderas.jpg

Custom Settings of avi uncompressed (chose Lagarith so it's not really uncompressed):
http://www.motleypixel.com/public/po...m_settings.jpg

Rendered the avi w/o audio and open in VDub and first went to Filters>Resize:
http://www.motleypixel.com/public/posts/vdub_resize.jpg

Now I'm in a quandary again because I don't know the correct size setting. Again this will be played on a DVD player hooked up to a 1080p LCD widescreen 16:9 TV via HDMI. Using 720 for the X asis yields an aspect on Y of 405 (not 480). What settings do I use for this resize filter?

Then in VDub>Video>Compression I chose this with these settings...good?:
http://www.motleypixel.com/public/po...ompression.jpg

I'll stop here and wait for your reply. I'm in no rush...just want to get this cook-booked so I can make standard files.

Thanks,
Roy

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Roy Niswanger

Rendered the avi w/o audio and open in VDub and first went to Filters>Resize:
http://www.motleypixel.com/public/posts/vdub_resize.jpg

Now I'm in a quandary again because I don't know the correct size setting. Again this will be played on a DVD player hooked up to a 1080p LCD widescreen 16:9 TV via HDMI. Using 720 for the X asis yields an aspect on Y of 405 (not 480). What settings do I use for this resize filter?

I'll be curious to see what others say because I don't work with TMPGEnc and don't know how it wants the size from here. SD Widescreen is 854x480. If you were doing square pixel work, that is what I would tell you to use. But I don't know what TMPGenc wants. It may want the 720x405, or even 720x480 and it will change the PAR on it's own.

Originally Posted by Roy Niswanger

Then in VDub>Video>Compression I chose this with these settings...good?:
http://www.motleypixel.com/public/po...ompression.jpg

I'll stop here and wait for your reply. I'm in no rush...just want to get this cook-booked so I can make standard files.

As for the last of the v-dub settings, change the encoding method from Precise Bicubic to Lanczos. Lanczos is usually the best choice (probably 95% of the time), but on rare occasions the Bicubic will do a better job.

[Roy Niswanger]

Alright thanks again. I checked and TMPGenc encodes to 720X480. Now I've done two test and limited by just one source .mov from my 5D I have to say that I can't see any difference on my HDTV via SD DVD.

Going from Cineform to Vegas to full-res Lagarith avi and then to TMPGenc seem to yield the same results when I insert the VDub step, only difference is that the encode in TMPGenc to DVD takes a bit longer to downsize the 1920X1080 lag avi from Vegas vs the 720X405 lag avi from VDub, but then you take into account the time to encode in VDub and it's a wash.

I think I'm satisified now...I guess it will be, oh maybe 6 months, and I'll be wanting to buy a BD Burner and BD's to burn so I'll have to go through some of this again.

As for the MP4 stuff, this is the guide I use once I do the Cineform conversion of my 5D footage...seems to work well for youtube and vimeo: Eugenia's Rants and Thoughts Blog Archive Exporting with Vegas for Vimeo HD

Thanks for all the help...I'll be coming back to this thread for sure.
-Roy

[Perrone Ford]

The 5D is barely resolving enough lines to be called HD. So it's not surprising at all that you don't see much difference (if any) adding the VDub step. Should you be faced with a camera resolving out near 1000 lines or more, you'll most certainly see the difference.

[Chris Harding]

Hi Perrone

With footage from my HMC72 at a mere 13mps I would suspect that's why I also cannot see any visible difference between AVCHD to SD and Transcoded AVCHD to AVI to SD ???

I highly doubt that my little 1/4" CCD's would be anywhere close to 1000 lines!! It probably, like the 5D just manages to produce a 1920x1080 image and that's about it..pretty much scraping in at the bottom of the ladder. The HMC 72 scrapes in at a mere 567 line resolution and even the way more expensive Canon XH-A1 can only manage just under 700

If that is the case then it seems rather pointless going thru these long render times and multiple operations when I can simply just do a transcode to DV-AVI and have lightning fast final rendering and a final video on DVD where the client cannot tell the difference anyway.

Have you any idea at what line resolution it definately becomes a asset to take extra steps to get the best possible SD image ...or is 1000 the minimum???

Chris

[Perrone Ford]

My EX1 resolves somewhere between 800 and 900 lines and I can tell the difference. So no, 1k is not the minimum. I think a lot of it depends on the camera, the codec it records in, the care of that signal once it's ingested, and the delivery medium.

But if you (and your clients) can't see the difference, then why bother with all the steps? I was VERY happy with my recent 720p shoot not going through all those hoops.

-P

Originally Posted by Chris Harding

Have you any idea at what line resolution it definately becomes a asset to take extra steps to get the best possible SD image ...or is 1000 the minimum???

Chris

[Chris Harding]

Thanks Perrone!!

Maybe that will now stop me wasting all this time with comparative clips and trying to decide what format to render to and will it be worth it!!

My res is nowhere near an EX1 (nor is my budget) so I'm now comfortable with doing things without the extra steps.

Your expert advice is much appreciated!!

Chris

[Roy Niswanger]

Perrone,

Just wanted to do a quick follow-up and let you know that things are going well. My HD web and SD DVD footage seems very good.

Now, really quick, if this is my last step in Vegas (after I've opened the Cineform Neo Scene avi and edited the footage), so do these settings look right if after this step I open the avi (and associated .ac3 audio file) in TMPGenc (which down-scales to 720X480p) for SD DVD?

http://www.motleypixel.com/public/po...m_settings.jpg

I'm curious if I need "Interleave every (seconds):" checked...reading the purpose seems pretty vague. Also, know that TMPGenc down-sizes to 720X480 then should I use 1.00000 Pixel aspect ratio. And lastly I figure "Create an OpenDML" checked wouldn't make much of a difference right?

Well, all I need now is more filming skill...maybe a weight rig, microphone, LDC screen and I may acutall make some decent footage...here's an MP4 HD sample hosted by flickr: Niswanger Valentine's Day 2010 in HD on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Thanks,
Roy

[Roy Niswanger]

Okay, I have a new quandary, the 5D Mk 2 will have a new firmware released from Canon on March 16th and here's the official nuts-n-bolts:

Developed following feedback from photographers and cinematographers, Firmware 2.0.3 further enhances the EOS 5D Mark II’s excellent video performance. The addition of new frame rates expands the camera’s video potential, providing filmmakers with the ability to shoot 1080p Full HD footage at 24fps (actual 23.976fps) – the optimum frame rate for cinematic video. 25fps support at both 1920×1080 and 640×480 resolutions will allow users to film at the frame rate required for the PAL broadcast standard, while the new firmware will also change the 30fps option to the NTSC video standard of 29.97fps.

Now, this 30fps conversion to std. 29.97fps, will this make my Windows step of using Cineform Neo Scene to convert the 30fps .mov files to 29.97fps .avi files obsolete?

Also, what's the big difference between 24fps and 30fps other than a slower frame rate...wouldn't higher action scenes benefit from a higher frame rate?

Thanks,
Roy

[Brian Luce]

24p gives a film like motion signature as film also displays at 24fps. 30fps might look a little smoother and more like LIVE TV.

[Mitja Popovski]

if anyone uses cinenemacraft CCE encoder - there is also LanczosResize filter posibility and the end DVD results are spectacular. Also CCE excepts cineform and original 5dmarkII .mov files
bye

[Gerald Webb]

well this has been a great read, and I must admit b4 now I didnt really get it,
HD to SD, too easy, what can go wrong, just do it in Vegas.......
I was wrong.....
Over the last cpl of weeks Ive edited up my latest HD multi cam shoot, and everybody wants a DVD ( not a Bluray ), so I read this thread and some more on the net and gave V DUB a go at the down convert.
I rendered the show out of Vegas first, 1080p Cineform to PAL DVD first to have something to compare it to ( it looked fine as always, I mean its just SD, right? ).
So the workflow was/is,
All cams media converted to Cineform High quality 1080p
Edit
Render to Cineform again (should I have done Lags here? probably )
Open in VDUB, apply resize filter, 1024 x 576 (PAL square pixel, is there a way to set pixel aspect ratio here so DVDA doesnt have to recompress?)
Render to Lags,
Import to DVD Architect, apply chapters etc
Export and burn.

Opened up the 2 files in Vegas, one over the top, Previewed on my big monitor in Best Full,
then found some nice frames and muted the top track to compare the two.
The difference is massive!!!
The DVD from Vegas is "washed out", the blacks are grey, all definition is soft.

Played the DVD (the VDUB vers) on the 50" plasma through the PS3 and everyone thought it was still
HD.
I had my doubts, but the difference is huge, Im a convert.

And one more thing, all my cameras apart from one are consumer Canons, and the difference is noticeable on every cam, even the old SD sony tape cam that gets upconverted at capture.

cheers guys.
:)

[Zachary Mattson]

I have read much of this thread, and I have a (what I would think to be) simple question that I can't seem to find an answer for.

I finished a 22 minute short film for film festivals, shot mostly on 7D. I edited in the Perrone Ford DNxHD codec, and everything went great. For the Bluray copies I have MP4 settings that I am satisfied with.

For the SD copies that some fests need, I have found that the MPEG-2 at highest settings doesn't look as good on the TV as a WMV version that I rendered out, but the WMV still doesn't look as good as I would like it to. Would it help if I changed the timeline to SD widescreen before rendering? Or does anyone have specific settings that I should change to? I'm not real good when it comes to codecs and whatnot, so if anyone has specific settings I should try, I would GREATLY appreciate the help!

Note: The SD MPEG-2 I rendered to DVDA Widescreen 24p, but have not put it on a DVD through DVDA yet, because the quality on the comp was pixelated, so I didn't want to waste a DVD. Will the quality look better if placed on a DVD through DVDA?

Thanks!

Zach

[Randall Leong]

Originally Posted by Zachary Mattson

I have read much of this thread, and I have a (what I would think to be) simple question that I can't seem to find an answer for.

I finished a 22 minute short film for film festivals, shot mostly on 7D. I edited in the Perrone Ford DNxHD codec, and everything went great. For the Bluray copies I have MP4 settings that I am satisfied with.

For the SD copies that some fests need, I have found that the MPEG-2 at highest settings doesn't look as good on the TV as a WMV version that I rendered out, but the WMV still doesn't look as good as I would like it to. Would it help if I changed the timeline to SD widescreen before rendering? Or does anyone have specific settings that I should change to? I'm not real good when it comes to codecs and whatnot, so if anyone has specific settings I should try, I would GREATLY appreciate the help!

Note: The SD MPEG-2 I rendered to DVDA Widescreen 24p, but have not put it on a DVD through DVDA yet, because the quality on the comp was pixelated, so I didn't want to waste a DVD. Will the quality look better if placed on a DVD through DVDA?

It would not have made much of a difference because Vegas's built-in MainConcept MPEG-2 encoder (and the built-in MPEG-2 encoders of most other NLEs) do a piss-poor job of downsizing images (they simply use the wrong resizing alogarithm for the job and cannot be configured to use the proper resize alogarithm without the need for "unsupported" third-party plugins). This results in shimmering and pixelated reds. And if anything, the MPEG-2 encoder in DVDA is even worse than the MainConcept MPEG-2 encoder for downsizing video resolution.